[SPOILERS] Charriu and Zalson are fighting the honorable post count war!

[Cornflakes]

Consider settling on sugar? Not saying it's the best, but at least think it through as an option. Picks up a couple of extra forests in the capital, loses the plains hill hammer but picks up an extra food on the city center. The sugar is otherwise a poor tile for a long time (could treat is as floodplain and cottage). Moving off the coast is a mixed +/- ... can't build boats/workboats, but also don't have to worry about naval attack on your capital.

CRE is my favorite trait due to ease of use and ease of dotmap and more comfortable borders. You can plant cities that pick up a 2nd ring food, and steal an already-improved food from an existing city while waiting for the borders to pop. Also makes it easier to plant for copper/horses and early luxuries without having to settle a marginal city. That's all I'll say about traits.

Is the corn wet or dry?

[Zalson]

Some quick thoughts:
with a hunting/mining start and no production bonuses

T0: settle in place, work pigs, build worker, tech agriculture
T8: agriculture comes in (I think)
T9: start bronze working
T12: worker is out, start warrior, start working the sugar to grow. worker moves to pigs
T16: finish pigs pasture, work the pigs
T17: move to corn
T18: grow to size 2, add the sugar, farm corn
T19: finish warrior, start worker
T20: BW comes in
T21: complete farm, swap to corn, start wheel
T22: move to chop plains forest N of corn
T23: make with the choppity
T25: 2nd worker completes and moves to PF N of pigs, chop into settler
T26: 2nd worker chops, capital swaps to warrior and max food, worker moves to plains forest N of pigs
T27: swap back to settler, chop comes in
T28: back to the warrior, workesr move to mine riverside grassland hill
T29: workers mine the hill, grow to size 3 EoT
T30: finish mine, restart settler, wheel complete
T31: workers move to chop
T32: workers chop
T33: settler out, overflow and chop into worker 3, worker with a free move puts in a road
T34: settler heads to next build, workers road over that way
T35: worker 3 out, overflow into warrior
T36: warrior #2 out

I don't know if it is tighter with China (agg/mining) or Korea (agg/Mining). Don't know if my beaker counts are correct. Ideally, our second city goes south. If it needs to go north, we change the chop to the 1S grassland forest instead of the one north of the pigs.

Anyway, we have 2 warriors, 3 workers, and a settler on T37, plus a revolt into slavery (I think T34 or T37, depending on where our 2nd city spot), plus only the minimum turns working unimproved tiles.

Eventually, we may want to add a farm on the sugar for a 4/1 tile. Also, I think we grow the capital a bit after worker 3 before chopping the other 2 forests into a settler around T40. Second city should get its food up in the first 2 turns, and then we add another improved tile there -- maybe for another settler? That depends on the land.

[Zalson]

We're winning the post count war, too! Let's keep it up!

[Charriu]

We're winning the post count war, too! Let's keep it up!

That's my long, medium and short goal all the time.  

Consider settling on sugar? Not saying it's the best, but at least think it through as an option. Picks up a couple of extra forests in the capital, loses the plains hill hammer but picks up an extra food on the city center. The sugar is otherwise a poor tile for a long time (could treat is as floodplain and cottage). Moving off the coast is a mixed +/- ... can't build boats/workboats, but also don't have to worry about naval attack on your capital.

I looked into that. I assumed that "don't trust the fog" means only the tiles in my immediate BFC are real. All in all I will stay on the plain hill. I think keeping the crab and the additional hammer is better in the long run.


But back to Zalson's plan. I did some tests:

1. You were right. Fishing is a red herring. I just needed to see it for myself.
   
2. I tested with the Zulu (Agriculture/Hunting) and did Mining -> BW. BW was finished in T21
   
3. Agriculture, Hunting and Wheel are all worth 89 beakers and Mining is worth 74. So your plan best works with Agriculture and Hunting at the start, which only Persia and Zulu have.
   
4. Starting with Wheel will delay BW by 8 turns.
   
5. In my tests I had Expansive as a trait. So without it my initial worker would have been delayed by 2 turns.
   

I like your plan, but I think it will best work with Agriculture/Hunting if I also choose exp as a trait. Without exp it could also work with Agriculture/Mining or Hunting/Mining. I looked into the start with The Wheel. It's does not make a big difference, I used the turns until BW to grow to pop 4 and build the mine earlier and a farm on the sugar, the disadvantage was that my 3rd worker took a bit longer to finish.

[Charriu]

Wow, thanks so far for your thoughts and suggestion. When I'm home and the kids are in bed, I will have time to do some simming and deeper thinking. Let me just share my inital thinking about traits from least favorite to favorite. I did these before you posted your suggestions:

10. Ind, Spi: Like I already said I don't want to focus on religion or wonders initially. These will just draw attention away from what I want to do.
9. Phi: The great people strategy can be good if done correct, but I'm not up for that as of now. The university bonus comes a bit late, but at least helps with oxford. All in all to few early bonuses for my taste.
8. Cre: I don't think that this is a bad trait on the contrary. The initial +2 culture are awesome and the library bonus are great. Theatre too if need be. The reason why I rate this lower is for a simple reasons: I tend to settle cities that are great on paper, but start slow because I neglect the first ring. With Cre I won't improve in that area. My thinking is that without Cre I will improve in the area of city placement.
7. Cha: The initial happiness bonus is awesome and helps with whipping and growing early. The experience bonus is good but not overwhelming, same for the library bonus. The other bonuses are a bit lacking or to late.
6. Imp: The custom house bonus is way to late for my taste and the great general bonus is nice but not awesome. This leaves only the settler bonus, which is great, but I feel a little overrated. If I'm correct the production bonus is only for the hammer part of the settler production and not the food part. I feel that you notice the benefit with this more in smaller cities with lower pop, but then the settler will still take a long time to build. The one area were this is awesome is with chopping.
5. Agg: I had this in PB39. The barracks were really great as I didn't have to rely on monuments for early culture. Maintenance bonus is really great. The promotion now really feels like the worst, but still great, part of this trait. This is still a hot contester for my trait
4. Fin: This was a great trait in normal BTS and was heavily nerfed in RtR. The bank bonus is a bit late so the only other thing is the commerce bonus. The only reason it is up here is, because I'm at the coast with seafood. I think after some simming I will no if it is really worth it.
3. Pro: The early defense related bonuses are awesome, but it won't help when I am on the offensive. I think the main thing going for this is the granary bonus and I see why. But seeing that I have 4 food resources in my initial BFC, I don't fear that food will be a problem.
2. Org: The civic bonus is a really nice passive bonus. May main reason for rating this higher is the lighthouse and to a lesser extend the courthouse bonus. I know that Commodore said not to trust the fog, but even then this still means that I am at the coast. My gut feeling says that there is more coast to settle some nice coastal cities. 
1. Exp: The health bonus is more neglectable and the harbor, aqueduct and grocer bonus are fine. The market bonus is awesome as some commerce cities tend to be lower on production. The main thing going for me here is the worker and workboat bonus. If I'm going for Worker, workboat, warrior, settler I will save a lot of turns on those two in the beginning.

I thought about what you all said and I made up a new trait list:

• Fin is down to 7th place. The commerce bonus won't help me that much even with if I would connect the crab right from the start
  
• Agg is up to 3rd place
  
• Pro is up to 2nd place
  
• Org is down to 4th place. You were right the lighthouse is not that strong.
  

So this leaves me with my TOP 3 of Exp, Pro and Agg and these possible leaders:

Mao (Exp/Pro)
Shaka (Exp/Agg)
Tokugawa (Pro/Agg)


As for civs these are my list of choice:

1. Zulu (Hunting/Agriculture): Love the impi and the Ikanda is awesome. I will definitly want Agg with this for the building bonus and even more maintenance reduction
   
2. Ethiopia (Hunting/Mining): Oromo comes late but is still good. Stele good be useful without Cre. With this I would like to have Pro
   
3. Chinese (Agriculture/Mining): Chu Ko Nu looks nice and should I get into culture trouble the chinese can provide.
   
4. Persia (Hunting/Agriculture): The immortal is very nice, but do I really want to attack that early. The apothecracy is not important. I would only choose them if I get Exp and not the Zulu.
   

This just leaves me to decide if I want to secure my favorite leader or my favorite civ. But it's already late and I will decide it tomorrow morning. I'm tending towards taking Zulu.

[Zalson]

Don't discount immortals: they're anti-archer -- and they're two movers that get defensive bonuses.

I'd push China up to choice #1 and pair with Mao just for the restricted leader synergy :P

[Charriu]

So I will leave the well-trodden path of Zulu and go with something more interesting. I will definitely want Pro with this.

China

It is.

[Zalson]

Okay then! Did you think that China was likely to be taken early? What was your reasoning for taking it first picks vs. Mao (considering that we have at least 3 civ options that'll work?)

I reran my plan with a few tweaks for EXP and China. Here's the breakdown; I think it can come in tighter but I'm not sure how. This one nicely has a few more turns of unimproved tile working and misses a revolt to slavery. I figure we can do that on the way to founding city 2. The benefit?

Growth
Size 2 - EoT 15
Size 3 - EoT 26

Builds
Worker T10
Warrior T17
Worker T23
Start Settler T23 (pick up a chop)
Warrior T24
Restart Settler T27 (pick up 2 chops)
Settler complete T29

So it pulls in the first settler by 5 turns. I was trying to think if I could do it faster but we don't get bronze working soon enough to chop out that second worker. Also I've run out of time.

But the basic idea was pigs, mine the non-riverside hill (so we're next to the corn), farm, chop. Settler was done T30; Worker was done T22, and there's 41/60 into a worker on T30 (a little settler overflow plus an expansive chop). On the plus side, we were working 3 improved tiles, where as the version above has 2 turns without an improved tile.

So that might be better. I'll write it up. We also use the plains forest on T16 and T17 to get an extra hammer or 2 from expansive. We're basically sacrificing maybe 10 commerce for 3rd worker on T33 as opposed to T35.

So that's 3 workers, 2 warriors, 1 settler all on T33. That's better, I think.

Let me know if you need a more detailed explanation of plan 2.

[Charriu]

Okay then! Did you think that China was likely to be taken early? What was your reasoning for taking it first picks vs. Mao (considering that we have at least 3 civ options that'll work?)

Between the four civs these were my thoughts after a good night sleep:

• Zulu: Really strong, but also somewhat boring by now. My head said that it's a good choice, but my gut was like "Uh, not Zulu, they are boring".
  
• Ethiopia: I found the UB somewhat laking compared to the others. Also the Oromo warrior was a bit to late for my taste.
  
• Persia: I agree with you that the Immortal is better then I wrote, but with it I felt the urge to do an early rush or something like it.
  
• China: In my past games I rarely used the Chu Ko Nu, it just didn't happen. I find it still an interesting unit and I want to do more with it.
  

With China in mind I also considered my leader options. Pro is now a must and more important than Exp in my opinion. So I'm looking at the following leaders:

1. Tokugawa (Agg/Pro): Agg also gives promotions towards gunpowder just like Pro. It also opens up the path for a good culture building in the barracks and then there's the maintenance reduction.
   
2. Mao (Exp/Pro): I still love the worker bonus and with enough coastal cities the workboat bonus also comes in handy.
   
3. Churchill (Cha/Pro): The happiness bonus comes in really handy and the library bonus is great. But the main reason for taking this with China is the promotion bonus, which will make Archer units even better.
   
4. Gilgamesh (Cre/Pro): Yes I said that I rather would not play with Cre for training reasons, but if there is no better leader this is still a great one. After all you and mackoti suggested it.
   
5. Charlegmane (Imp/Pro): This is my last straw, but I think I can work with it.
   

So why choosing civ before leader. I felt that I have more good leader options then civ options that I want to play. Between China and Mao I don't think that either one would be taken early by others. In addition I also felt that I have delayed the game too much.

[Charriu]

I reran my plan with a few tweaks for EXP and China. Here's the breakdown; I think it can come in tighter but I'm not sure how. This one nicely has a few more turns of unimproved tile working and misses a revolt to slavery. I figure we can do that on the way to founding city 2. The benefit?

Growth
Size 2 - EoT 15
Size 3 - EoT 26

Builds
Worker T10
Warrior T17
Worker T23
Start Settler T23 (pick up a chop)
Warrior T24
Restart Settler T27 (pick up 2 chops)
Settler complete T29

So it pulls in the first settler by 5 turns. I was trying to think if I could do it faster but we don't get bronze working soon enough to chop out that second worker. Also I've run out of time.

But the basic idea was pigs, mine the non-riverside hill (so we're next to the corn), farm, chop. Settler was done T30; Worker was done T22, and there's 41/60 into a worker on T30 (a little settler overflow plus an expansive chop). On the plus side, we were working 3 improved tiles, where as the version above has 2 turns without an improved tile.

So that might be better. I'll write it up. We also use the plains forest on T16 and T17 to get an extra hammer or 2 from expansive. We're basically sacrificing maybe 10 commerce for 3rd worker on T33 as opposed to T35.

So that's 3 workers, 2 warriors, 1 settler all on T33. That's better, I think.

Let me know if you need a more detailed explanation of plan 2.

Thanks for the input. I think we will have some time till all players are finished with the snake pick. So I wanted to do some planning and see how I come along. I also want to find out your detailed plan on my own. That'll be a good moment to practice for me and if I don't get it I can still come back to you. I also can't let you do all the work.