RB PBEM #1 - Gandhi [spoilers]

[Ruff_Hi]

email to sooooo

Sooooo,

A pretty even start to the 1st test - all English batsman getting a start, which is bad.

Anyway, where are you heading after literature? I am thinking Feudalism but that isn't locked in yet.

Ruff

reply ...

Yeah England are going OK, but it's rather nervy.

I'm going for construction next. No point hiding my research from you!

What do you think I should build next in Sparta?

Which one is Sparta? To the E with Horses? I would most certainly rush a barracks there with your GE.

[Ruff_Hi]

• FF - worker [2]
  
• LQ - warrior [1]
  
• DV - library [?]
  
• BH - Granary [19]
  
• Thing #1 - plantation at DV
  
• Thing #2 - plantation at DV
  
• Thing #3 - mining at BH
  
• Thing #4 - cottage at capital - will chop into AP
  
• Thing #5 - mine hill at FF - will chop into AP
  
• Scout (Dead Man Walking) - exploring sooooo's North
  
• Scout (Live Man Walking) - heading back W
  
• Chariot XP=4 - killed 1 barb but only just ... has 4HPs left.
  
• axe - moving to DV
  
• Tech - Theology [2]
  
• GP [11] @ LQ 100% scientist
  

[Ruff_Hi]

• FF - worker [1]
  
• LQ - settler [4], scientists fired
  
• DV - library [1], whipped
  
• BH - Granary [18]
  
• Thing #1 - Plantation at DV
  
• Thing #2 - Plantation at DV
  
• Thing #3 - mining at BH, order canceled
  
• Thing #4 - cottage at capital - will chop into AP , order canceled
  
• Thing #5 - mine hill at FF - will chop into AP , order canceled
  
• Scout (Dead Man Walking) - exploring sooooo's North
  
• Scout (Live Man Walking) - heading back W
  
• Chariot XP=4 - looking for somewhere to heal
  
• axe - at DV
  
• Tech - Theology [1]
  

My capital is still not connected and I am now looking for a worker to road 1 or 2 tiles. I hit 'end of turn' and land Christianity in LQ ... the city where I have a settled priest already. If I build the shrine there ... very nice.

[Ruff_Hi]

Ok, here is (finally) a report summarizing the Empire of India.

Firstly ...


I have a religion. And it goes into LQ, the city that I have my settled priest in. How lucky is that!

Anyway, here is an overview - Thumbnail of Indian Empire


I've just founded 'Bandhani Saree' (south of FF) to pick up the two dyes. I had 2 workers at the capital (one chopping a mine and the other chopping a cottage). I've moved one of these workers to put a plantation on the Northern Dye and the other worker to (finally) connect the capital to the other cities (currently standing where the missionary is, 1NE of Corn). I've just finished a worker at the capital and he has moved to the Incense at the capital.

One of the Spices at DV has been connected but I cannot trade it to Dreylin (capital not connected) so I am enjoying the happiness benefit. One of DV's workers has moved to connect the other Dye. The other will move to cottage the DV floodplain in the NW.

Both the Capital and LQ are on Settlers. One will head South to pick up the Stone while the other heads North to pick up the fish. This fishing village will pick up the duties of building cheap warriors for my Empire's happiness concerns.

The other city I haven't talked about is 'Block Head' ...


If you count carefully, this city has 9 grassland hills and zero food resources. This is the resourceless city that sooooo was so shocked about in our early discussions regarding DV. I am going to irrigate the grassland tiles at this site (+5 food). That and the +2 food at the capital will enable me to work 7 grassland mines. Sure, the city will have to be size 12 but that only requires time to grow. I have a worker irrigating the grassland (bottom right) and he will then move to chop out the Granary ... just as long as it is finished before the food hits half way .

So, summary:

• FF - settler [3]
  
• LQ - settler [3]
  
• DV - courthouse [31]
  
• BH - Granary [17]
  
• BS - Granary [20]
  
• Thing #1 - Plantation at DV
  
• Thing #2 - Plantation at DV
  
• Thing #3 - moved to connect capital
  
• Thing #4 - moved to Northern Dye
  
• Thing #5 - farm at BH
  
• Thing #6 - Plantation at FF (Incense)
  
• Scout (Dead Man Walking) - exploring sooooo's North
  
• Scout (Live Man Walking) - exploring mh / Athlete land
  
• Chariot XP=4 - looking for somewhere to heal
  
• Tech - Feudalism [568] - saving up some $
  

[darrelljs]

I predict Block Head is never whipped .

Can you explain the food halfway thing? I thought that they changed the Granary mechanics from Civ 3 precisely so you didn't have to worry about when the Granary finished...

Darrell

[Ruff_Hi]

Can you explain the food halfway thing? I thought that they changed the Granary mechanics from Civ 3 precisely so you didn't have to worry about when the Granary finished...

The following is based on my understanding ...

If I want to make the most efficient use of the granary, I need to finish it before the food is half way to the next growth. Half of every food that I get after I have finished the granary is stored in the granary and the growth next turn is based on that food.

If I finish the granary early in the growth cycle, then it has reached 'full' status before the city can actually grow. The upshot for this is that there is no food benefit from mm'ing to finish a granary while your city is in the first half of the growth phase.

If I finish the granary during the second half, then the granary cannot contribute the full amount of food that it could have (thus giving rise to an opportunity cost or a waste depending on how you look at it).

So, if I complete the granary at (or before) half way, then that food that gets me to grow also fills the granary and I start the next growth phase at half way.

[T-hawk]

Can you explain the food halfway thing? I thought that they changed the Granary mechanics from Civ 3 precisely so you didn't have to worry about when the Granary finished...

Ruff explained it well. The new mechanic in Civ 4 does drastically reduce the payoff or cost of correctly or incorrectly timing the completion of a granary.

In Civ 3, completing the granary one turn too late would cost an entire half of the food box - which means extrapolating from there, cost you an entire city size for the entire life of the city until it hit a size cap.

In Civ 4, one turn difference on granary completion can never cost more than one turn worth of food. There's still a little MM gain to be had, but much less to be lost by not perfectly MMing. And the nature of the MM is different and much more natural. Rather than counterintuitively gaining food by delaying growth in Civ 3, the Civ 4 optimal MM is to switch to a higher food tile sooner and let the granary finish slightly later.

(My suggestion for the granary mechanic would be to ditch the retain-half-box mechanic, and simply make the granary double the city's food surplus. That is functionally how the granary already works, and would work around all the MM and turn timing and roundoff artifacts. That would also bring the building in line with the behavior of all the other multiplier buildings in the game.)

[Cyneheard]

I don't want to derail the thread, but
T-Hawk, two things to consider:
1) The granary bonus goes away when you build a settler or worker (easy enough, otherwise granary-worker-settler becomes very cheap and quick with floodplains/food boni)
2) Also, your modification does buff granaries. Let's say normal speed, +4 food surplus (and also +4 if at size 3), size-2 city with no food in the box just finished a granary.
Current system:
24 food for size 3: 6 turns.
12 food in the box for growing to size 4, need 26 total: 4 turns, 2 food overflow.
Your system: What was +4 is now +8.
Size 3: 3 turns to growth!
Size 4 still takes 4 turns, but the surplus is now 6, which is more than 2x the 2 food overflow. So the granary boosts you three turns sooner, and gives you more overflow down the line.
And this is without roundoff artifacts that epic and quick speed create.
Your proposal's a lot simpler, but is also a huge buff for a building that already is an almost automatic Build Me First. (Expansive players of the world, unite!)

[Ruff_Hi]

• FF - settler [1]
  
• LQ - settler [1]
  
• DV - courthouse [30]
  
• BH - Granary [16]
  
• BS - Granary [19]
  
• Thing #1 - Plantation at DV
  
• Thing #2 - Plantation at DV
  
• Thing #3 - connecting capital
  
• Thing #4 - clearing jungle at Northern Dye
  
• Thing #5 - farm at BH
  
• Thing #6 - Plantation at FF (Incense)
  
• Scout (Dead Man Walking) - exploring sooooo's North
  
• Scout (Live Man Walking) - exploring mh / Athlete land
  
• Chariot XP=4 - stopping with Dreylin to heal
  
• Tech - Paper [way too high] - saving up some $
  

[Ruff_Hi]

Athlete got back to me about the proposed trade (see post 290) ...

Hey Ruff,

I'm going to have to decline this. I'm just not that interested in Theology at the moment. Maybe something can be worked out in the future. Once I've completed Construction I plan on teching Feudalism yet I'm told you may have already started or plan to soon. Have either of those scenario's come to pass yet?

Athlete,

I have started Feudalism. I haven't got many beakers invested yet.

Ruff,

Is it important for you to research it? I've still got 5-6 turns of construction before I will start it so I understand if you want to go ahead and research it but if you want to move on to something else I'd really appreciate it and be more than happy to trade it to you one I get it.

Ruff,

I'm 2 turns away from completing Construction. That should help you make the best decision for your civ.

Athlete,

Why are you so keen on it? I've already got 53b invested in it and I will lose those if I swap away and then trade for it. I'm not married to it - my second option would be paper.

It's up to you Ruff. I'd be happy to give you a "credit" for those 53b but if it's too much of a hassle than no biggie I'll find something to tech to trade for it from you. I want it for my protective Longbows and in my mind it has pretty good trade value...

No, its fine - you pick up Feudalism and I'll go for Paper.

Athlete seems to get fixated on particular techs. It doesn't really matter if I tech it or he does - as long as he can pick it up via trade. He must be starting to get nervious about his military situation. Actually, paper for me is fine - and with me going for the AP and then building lots of religious buildings, the University of Sankore (Double Production Speed w/ Stone, +2 beakers for all State Religion buildings, Generates Great Scientist Points) is a great fit. I'll steal a leaf from sooooo's book and try and put this wonder into LQ.

One of my new settlers will found the fishing, Moai Statues and the other will trek down South and connect my stone.