RBP3 [SPOILERS] Hannibal of Byzantium (Bobchillingworth, ManiaMuse & SleepingMoogle)

[ManiaMuse]

I sent a map to the Maya of our S/SE region as they have been quite helpful with their screenshots and I'm pretty sure neither of you sent one yet. I blacked out our builds although I left the minimap uncovered since they seem keen to work with Babylon. It's probably only fair since our exploration hasn't been as substantial as Maya's anyway.

[Bobchillingworth]

RL means that I can't say for certain when I'll be available, hopefully I'll be around for at least an hour tonight at the same time you're both usually on. I support attacking England as well- probably will just be us and babylon though, with their troops consisting of only 1-movers (axes and spears). We will need to coordinate closely with them, and require a solid war plan. I'm thinking 6-8 chariots from us, possibly 4-6 to start with, with reinforcements coming in a second wave. You both are better at city managment than I am, I think- any estimates for what sort of time frame it may take to get that kind of force?

We can see if Mali can spare a few chariots, but I think they'll be preoccupied trying to secure the oracle ASAP. Even if they fail, Exploit is researching alpha currently I believe, and he thinks he can have it reasonably quickly. Exploit is onboard, and will be trying to get Rome to our side. He is also thinking of picking a fight with one of his Gang of 8 members, as a pre-emptive strike (he suspects that he will be one of the first to get declared on early).

I think our goal here should be to get our anti-8 alliance going (making good progress on that front already, with us as major organizers), with coordinated strikes on Gang of 8 members until they're entirely crippled. Show them that massive tech alliances aren't going to fly here. England, Portugal (I think exploit is targeting them, may be wrong), and Aztec may be hit in the 1st strike; if we can ally France, we may be able to move on to HRE with anything remaining from taking out England. When we hit a civ, I move for total elimination if we can cinch it- we aren't going to be buddies with England again after we strike, no matter what they say. Right now I think we have the element of surprise- England knows about our core group of 4, and the 8 probably suspect some sort of response from us, but I don't believe that England (or any of the others) is aware of how far the news of the super alliance has already leaked. They won't be expecting us to hit first.

Assuming we prevail in the coming global conflict (ugh), then I think it's back to working with our 3 close alliance members, with possibly 1 more joining. It should be clear to anyone we work with in crushing the 8 that we aren't looking to form a permanent huge tech alliance ourselves- rather the opposite. Don't want anyone feeling too betrayed after we send 'phracts to our one-time allies after all

[Bobchillingworth]

Continued the now standard buddy-buddy chats with Kyan and Ref and Mania of Maya, but not much new info. Exploit has met both, but as of this writing no one has been able to reach him in live chat except us. Maya found a second gold in their north; hopefully the Normandy will spot one of our own as we make our way to France. Kyan sent a map showing how to reach Mali, we should have contact soon.

I think we're commited at this point to war with England- Kyan seems to be going heavy on the troop production, so let's try to get in as many chariots as we can between cities 3 & 4 to assist. Not sure if Mali will contribute anything. I would like for us to be able to discuss this live, but I think there's only at best a 2-hour or so window where all three of us are online, so we may need to just bounce ideas back and forth in this thread.

The biggest news is that Kyan sent out a "call for aid" email, to be passed around our growing counter alliance- sounds like Inca are confirmed in as well. I forwarded it on to Maya, who met Babylon this turn, and Exploit. Kyan's email just about perfectly sums up the current diplo situation, but he seems to have a habit of being very loose with crucial details. He may have titled it "top secret", but without written guarantees from the recipients of secrecy, there's nothing stopping someone like Rome from revealing all of our plans to the enemy. The email is a little long to quote in this post, it's starred in the inbox if you guys want to read it. It doesn't really reveal anything we didn't know or discuss already.

A thought- do we want to send a "hey so thoughts on joining our alliance" email to England? It's more of a political farce than anything now, but the last chat we had with England was actually rather pleasant, and it might seem strange that we suddenly ceased communications with them, especially since we showed such interest in them joining us at first. Not to reveal any details to them, like that we know of their super alliance, but I'm interested what their response would be to refuse our offers.

[SleepingMoogle]

Turn 57:

There's not too much to say for this turn, really. Everything's just moving along according to the turn plan for now. We may wish to alter some of the longer-term builds for the Citadel though if we are to go to war soon. Feros would mostly be building military units anyhow, so we probably don't need changes there.

Anyway, the Citadel is about halfway through building its Settler. Two workers are currently building cottages on grassland river tiles. Feros is building its Granary (probably the last infrastructure for a while before we go into full military mode with it), and our other two Workers are chopping a forest to aid its construction. A barb Warrior came out of the fog on the west side of the lake. Depending on what it does, Fredricks may have to intercept it.

SSV Agincourt has cleared the fog around the third city site without revealing any barb units. SSV Normandy is healing for one more turn (We're still planning to send it north, right?). The barb Warrior next to Jenkins didn't attack, and instead moved away to the NE. We're still moving to the west to contact Mali.

Diplomacy developments up next.

[SleepingMoogle]

I don't have the time right now to write a comprehensive post, but I'll paste all recent communication for now. When I have some time, I'll write some thoughts about it.

First, Maya attempted to send us a screenshot, but it looks like it wasn't attached properly. I'm not sure what it was on so I sent them a quick message back we didn't receive it.

Babylon sent us this to help with scouting towards Mali:

I am unsure as to your current whereabouts. The grayish smudge is my best estimation but you should be able to plot your current location based off the tiles shown.

Watch out for the random barb warrior that appeared!

Also, please send this on to Maya to aid them in a safe route to us. Our axeman is coming to escort them in case of barbs.
For the record, not editing out the juicy info such as growth/builds etc wasn't an oversight

Your friends,

Kyan
Kysit's Periwinkles

A screenshot was attached, but I can't upload them from work.

The Mayans are close to contacting Babylon as well:

You can tell Babylon to set out some milk and cookies. We'll contact
them when I get home and roll the turn. We are currently 2 west of
their marble, and will meet them in the forest 1NW of it when I finish
the turn. Also, If I did not let you know, we met exploit this turn,
which is why we're late playing. I am hoping we can get advice from
him on where to move the chariot.

I will be home in ~30 min and hope to chat with you then.

~Maniac

I forwarded the Mayan message to Babylon and added this message of our own:

Greetings to our Babylonian allies,

This is to be a quick note regarding scouting efforts (the other diplomatic efforts require a more comprehensive response that is still being prepared).

We are pleased to let you know that our scout Jenkins had recently taken up a defensive position in the woods next to the barbarian raiding party in an effort to dissuade them from harassing your borders. This tactic has succeeded, and the barbarians have fled towards the lake to the northeast of their last known position. Jenkins has resumed his scouting mission again, with the goal still being to contact Mali as quickly as possible.

Also attached is a message received from our Mayan allies. They look to be quite close to your borders now as well.

On behalf of the Spectre Council,
-SleepingMoogle

Now for the really important stuff. It looks like we are moving towards an alliance against the Hydra. Maybe we should call it the Heracles alliance?

Anyway, first a big message from Kyan:

Ok guys, it's cards on the table time. We face a threat that could potentially overrun all of us. We need to know exactly what we're facing so i'm putting together a dossier to try and coordinate our efforts.

Please forward this on to Sumeria, Rome and Maya.

The Hydra

We suspect The Hydra to consist of:

Egypt, India, HRE, Ottomans, Carthage, Portugal, England and the Aztecs.

The bold and italicised i consider to be 100% definite. Portugal and Aztec is based off logical guess-work. I would be surprised if they aren't included.

The rest of the civ's - those reading this and also France who none of us have contact with- are left out of this bloc. As far as i'm concerned we NEED to work together to mutually ensure our survival. This is a temporary measure as far as i am concerned. We (Babylon) won't be declaring war or attacking any of you in the fore-seable future but we don't expect or want this to last all game. RBPB1 was ruined by this thing and a repeat performance is not what anyone wants.

We would be happy to offer NAP's of reasonable length to anyone who is worried in that regard.

Hydra's Objectives:

Get a super early alphabet and a whole lot of civ's together and tech their way to an irreversible advantage.

How Are They Getting Alphabet?

Currently we do not know 100%. I suspect there are two methods of them getting there a lot faster than us:

a) Beelining it and skipping mining/BW
b) Oracle

I am leaning towards use of the Oracle which points the finger at two, possibly 3 civ's in my eyes:

Aztec - they've had plenty of time to get the necessary techs and would want the prophet for a shrine for buddhism.

Egypt - same as above but for hinduism. And who would put it beyond Krill to organise this?

India - they have mysticism at the least and are industrious.

What to do?

We need to organise and fast. I believe Byz are sending a chariot up to meet France as soon as possible. We all need to get contact. Inca, sumeria and Rome- i appreciate this won't be easy for you guys but we'll do what we can and operate by proxy for now if we have to. I'm relying on some people forwarding replies and the like for now.

Secondly, we need to damage them somehow. We have no idea how France will feel about the whole thing but it's best to work under the assumption that we're currently the under-dog. Our main advantage is the potential for surprise. If we can land a few crippling blows early this could really turn the tide.

War?

Babylon are more than happy to launch a joint attack with Byzantine upon England. They are currently running a pure farmer's gambit and i feel confident of success if we can strike strong and decisively. This would have to be focused on soon though. I would prefer not to delay our alphabet research by getting hunting for spearmen but i will do if necessary.

Inca are attacking Ruff as we speak. I wish them total success and let's hope Ruff was building the Oracle!

Sumeria and Rome. How are you guys faring? I'm aware you're surrounded by the Hydra and could divert forces to you rather than England if that would be preferrable.

Mali and Maya. Where do you stand on the situation? Could you spare forces to attack England or assist in the south? I believe you both have, or will soon have, horses connected.

Babylon have no visible horses anywhere near our lands (an oversight by mapmakers per chance?) but we do have copper connected. The first axeman is already making his way to meet Maya's scout and more will be coming in short order (promoted).

=========

Tech

Mali are currently after Monarchy
We are 5t from writing and then heading for alphabet
Byz are saving gold then going IW
Maya are on writing and then after alphabet
Rome are i PRESUME on IW?
Sumeria i have no idea
Inca are on pottery at moment i believe.

I think maybe inca should get a load of the filler techs- fishing etc. Sumeria i need to know what you're doing so we can coordinate appropropriately.
Byz- maybe you should now go HBR instead?
If Sumeria are after alphabet which Byz have implied then babylon can divert to whatever after writing- aesthetics or something?

I appreciate our initial concern is survival but it's not just about the short-term. We'll need to get something going for at least the first round of trades to maintain competitivity.

The Map

This is how i currently understand it. Please bear in mind this is toroidal. Script is Green Team Battleground. It's huge but with extra tiles added.

???? / Carth / England /France /
Maya / Mali / Babylon / Byz
Desssssssssssssssssssssssert
???? / Inca / Rome / Sumeria
Aztec / India / HRE / Portugal

Two of these rows started with 5 civs i expect. Korea are gone but there's no guarantee they were on a row of 4 to begin with.
Some of this is based off rough descriptions so any help here would be appreciated. ( I expect Rome or Sumeria can help a lot with the southern hemisphere).

That's enough from me for today, if you can improve this or add to it- PLEASE get the info back to me one way or another asap.

Babylon currently has contact with Mali, England (bah), Byz, Inca and are soon to meet Sumeria and Maya. Rome- you can forward your messages thru any of these.

Your friends,

Kyan
Kysit's Periwinkles

Bob's response:

Bobchillingworth here. This is the perfect summary- but I am wary that there isn't a "do not disclose this to anyone else" clause. I would hate for someone like Rome to leak this to England... Exploit should be confirmed in with us, and has agreed to work on convincing Rome. Portugal and Aztec are indeed confirmed by Exploit to be members of the Gang of 8.

I will forward your email on the Exploit and Maya. We need to be careful in replying to these emails to not break any game rules regarding contact- I'll forward on any responses.

My team would like to discuss strategy amongst ourselves some (turning out to be difficult with RL), but we are agreed on the necessity of war, and will assist in attacking England. You are correct that we will try to reach France as soon as possible- we suspect that they were left out of the 8 because they are disaffected with the HRE, a member. I will forward on the suggestions about HBR, but bear in mind that we will still need hunting and archery to make it do anything, and Rome isn't confirmed in yet. When we hit England I would like to eliminate them completely, if at all possible. Burn the cities, don't attempt to hold anything. If we can ally France, possibly then move on to HRE with any surviving forces and reinforcements we can muster. Need to coordinate well for the turn half we desire as well.
Exploit has writing, and I believe is going for alpha, with a fairly quick research time. This will help us a lot.
Exploit is also gearing up for war, I think. Either with Rego or Portugal probably, working off memory here.

Use your discretion in sharing what I've written to you with others outside the Core 4. I also wouldn't promise more than a short-term "go kill the 8" alliance right off the bat to anyone- we don't want to find ourselves being the next huge tech alliance (and target) after we kill this one, after all

We will of course stay close to you, Maya, and Mali regardless of how this turns out. The "line in the sand" alliance, I believe Maya called it :D

And a very informative reply from Exploit:

I have sent this information to Rome since he has told me that he is interested in working with this alliance.

I can confirm that the Aztecs are allied with India. I can also add that the Aztecs are currently 98 turns away from researching Priesthood. The Aztecs have a total of 2 cities. Its doubtful that they have a copper resource since they recently rushed researching Archery in response to the impending war with the Incans (not an ideal choice of unit given the Quechua bonus vs archers so I think he was desperate when he swapped his research to beeline Archery).

Neither the Aztecs or India currently have Writing so any effort on their part to beeline Alphabet is far behind Sumeria's efforts. Sumeria has had Writing for several turns now and has beakers already invested in Alphabet. Based upon the civs that we have met thus far, we are the only ones currently capable of researching Alphabet.

India just placed a huge effort to settle stone (instead of their copper resource which is still unsettled) and they have Masonry. I believe their priority is likely to build the Pyramids and not the Oracle. My intel suggests that India is trying to arrange a joint attack against Sumeria which would derail our own early alphabet effort. I have been in discussions with the Mayans to hopefully convince them to harass the Indians with a chariot or two. Preferably denying India from settling the copper resource and forcing them to divert their efforts away from building the pyramids and an attack against Sumeria. This would allow Sumeria to finish its Alphabet research as early as possible.

That leaves Egypt as the prime candidate for the early Alphabet in the Hydra alliance probably via Oracle given that their research path definitely wasn't a beeline towards Alphabet. My recommendation is that someone in the alliance needs to meet up with Egypt as soon as possible to see if they have completed writing yet. Ideally someone in our alliance should also begin building the Oracle to deny our enemy the chance or at least possibly force Egypt to build the Oracle before they have finished researching Writing. If someone in the alliance has met Egypt then they should probably engage in harassment to force him to defend his territory. If Egypt has researched up to Priesthood and Writing then they may not even have Bronze Working yet possibly making them vulnerable to attack (even Krill's min/maxing can't let him research everything at once).

A small correction on your relative positioning of civs, the Indians are west of the Aztecs.

Some other intel, Portugal has 4 cities now and is apparently going on a REX strategy. India has 3 cities.
Regards,
Exploit

[SleepingMoogle]

My thoughts on this:

Heracles alliance:
I'd like to make it clear from the outset that this alliance is formed because we really don't have any other choice. We should stress that we'll cooperate in order to take the hydra down a notch (I kind of doubt we can kill it altogether), and then everyone should be free to separate if they so wish. We should consider fairly long NAPs, which are to expire once we're confident the danger of the Hydra is over. After that, every Civ can renegotiate NAPs, alliances, and tech trades if they so desire.

The best way to reach our goal will be to destroy some of the Civs completely, while avoiding losing any Civs of our own. England is looking like a natural first pick for this. From all accounts, they're not in any shape to withstand a multi-team attack We could follow up with Carthage to establish a very nice border around the alliance. At the same time, we need to defend Rome and Sumeria, which are the likely first targets of the Hydra. Rome should be able to greatly aid this effort with their Praetorians, but we may want to send some units south to help out Exploit, especially if he's to be our Alphabet civ.

In the short term, we need to get Rome in (they are interested, but we need to make it official), as well as France, whom we should try to contact asap. We also need to set a rough timetable for the attack, and how many units everyone will contribute to the effort. We should also ensure that Exploit will be able to finish Alphabet research and start trading it around.
Additionally, we need to figure out how the Hydra is planning to obtain Alphabet, and try to stop or at least delay the effort. Based on Exploit's mail, Egypt seems to be the most likely target. Do we know where their Civ is located yet? What have their techs been so far? Do they have Marble to speed up the Oracle? Etc etc.

Techs:
If Exploit is already researching Alphabet, I'm not sure having Babylon and Maya research it as well is really efficient. We may want to suggest they research something else instead (maybe Mathematics). There's also a number of other small techs (Fishing/Sailing, Hunting/Archery and Masonry, missing religious techs on the path to Masonry) that can be researched as well.

If Mali are currently on the path to Monarchy, then they are our best bet of denying the Oracle to the Hydra (they do have an Industrious leader after all). If they do land it, which tech should Mali go for? My top three picks would be Metal Casting, Code of Laws and Feudalism (in no particular order).

Unless another member of the Heracles alliance picks it up before us, I would really like to research Masonry after IW finishes. That way we can hook up the Stone at Feros, which will help our military production a lot. I'm fine with researching HBR after that if we can pick up Hunting and Archery through tech trades.

[ManiaMuse]

Kittens are suggesting that we go after India instead, at least to deny them copper. What do you guys think about this? They are skilled players but the argument Kittens make is that they (along with Krill) are probably the ones organising this whole thing so we might as well attack the heart of the alliance rather than a civ who joined up quite late.

Thoughts?

[SleepingMoogle]

It would be nice to attack India, but I don't see how it's either strategically sound or likely to succeed at this point. They are far away from us and are surrounded by multiple allies that would be able to assist them, whereas England sits exposed right next door.

[ManiaMuse]

But if it turns out that their alliance is about to oracle alphabet imminently, would that affect our decision? After all it seems that England is being more opportunistic and someone that we could swing later if it suited them?

[Bobchillingworth]

I support attacking England over India for a few reasons:

- Mali may be able to get the oracle first, and even if they don't, it is suspected that it isn't India building it anyway.

- England is closer, and attacking them has more direct benefits for our alliance and ourselves personally (may re-settle at least part of their land some day, or recieve some sort of bargin from Kyan for freeing it up for him).

- England should be easier to assault; however, I do not think that Babylon, with their slow 1-movers, will have the forces enough to take them out on their own.

- It sounds like both Maya and Sumeria will be able to attack India, which may be enough to slow them down. I would like to see the Maya pull their military weight in this alliance, and it may benefit us in the very long-term for the Maya to throw away some hammers in chariots at the present.

- We've already kind of promised Kyan that we'd help him out vs England, and I think he's totally bent on war :P

- England may have joined the others out of convenience, but that's a perfect reason why we don't want them as allies. Right now England is supporting the other guys with C&D, and I want to knock that capability out ASAP. When the dust settles from WWI ("The War on Knowlege") we will probably add only one more civ to our core alliance, pending ally approval. Right now I would much rather that civ be Sumeria, given their evidently tech-focused aspirations and the significant help they've already provided via intel. Even Inca or France would be preferable options than England, in my opinion, and we shouldn't form a long-term group of more than 5 civs, lest we become the next big target.


Moogle, your thoughts on the "Heracles Alliance" sum up our strategy and world situation very well- care to send it to at least Mali / Maya / Babylon (well, have it forwarded to Mali)? I can send it myself, but it will have to wait several hours.