RBPB3 - Gandhi of the Egyptians

[zakalwe]

Ok, I think I managed to catch up after all.

Sounds like the interesting developments to watch will be who exactly joins your tech alliance, and how successful you will be in persuading everybody to adopt your religion(s). Seems like it will be most "economical" to just go with one shrine and spread that religion as much as possible? Or is there something I'm overlooking that would favor multiple shrines?

Assuming you are wildly successful in spreading your religion, how do you plan on keeping the single most important city in the world safe? It would be an obvious raze target if a counter-alliance forms or if your own alliance splinters. Will you just count on always being included on the stronger side, simply because everybody will want your funding above anything else?

Gotta say, using the oracle to pop alphabet is a pretty clever plan.

[Krill]

Ok, I think I managed to catch up after all.

Sounds like the interesting developments to watch will be who exactly joins your tech alliance, and how successful you will be in persuading everybody to adopt your religion(s). Seems like it will be most "economical" to just go with one shrine and spread that religion as much as possible? Or is there something I'm overlooking that would favor multiple shrines?

You aren't far off my own thoughts. I only have one Wall Street, so I want 1 city to be the Holy City of the most widespread religion in the world, maybe the two most widespread (if I luck out and get Monotheism first). It would definitely be the most economical to spend only one GP on a shrine, if I could get most people to accept Hinduism as the "One True Faith" (OTF). Most people aren't going to accept that, and would prefer to get their own shrine to fund expansion/research, which is where the scarcity issue comes into play, and me grabbing as many religions as possible. Ultimately, if I own every shrine save one (Ruff) no one will have a choice but to ask me or Ruff for a religion, which is where I pointed out the game polarising along religious lines, and the importance of me and Ruff working together, as that makes whichever alliance we are both on much stronger if everything else is equal.

I do have a strategy for getting multiple religions spread widely, but so far it only works for 2 religions; first of all I get Hinduism spread around (Mutski, India, Ottomans, HRE, Carthage, my 2 southern neighbours), which would give half of the cities in the world converted, and to help them along I make AP while my state religion is Hindu. But once I near Completion...revolt to a minor religion in the city, which isn't spread widely, and complete the AP in the minor religion, making that much more valuable, and gift that around. That way I could cover some cities twice and the rest one, maybe, but a total of 150 base gpt from those 2 religions wouldn't be that unreasonable.

Assuming you are wildly successful in spreading your religion, how do you plan on keeping the single most important city in the world safe? It would be an obvious raze target if a counter-alliance forms or if your own alliance splinters. Will you just count on always being included on the stronger side, simply because everybody will want your funding above anything else?

Gotta say, using the oracle to pop alphabet is a pretty clever plan.

Same tactic sunrise used. Surround yourself with allies and make yourself invaluble to their cause. And when push comes to shove, give gold away to help their teching, whether they are on my side or not. If everyone is in the same alliance (which I'm hoping to achieve at first with the exception of France) then no worries at first, but afterwards I'm going to have to play it by ear.

However, if I can now spread the word about no one over-expanding, I'm not going to be all that weak compared to anyone else (I'm still going to have all of my forests to chop immediately, so that's a lot of extra hammers in reserve which no one else will have), and those that do over expand I have control over in Alphabet. It'll be difficult, but I can see myself coming out of this in a good, if not commanding position. Better than Sunrise came out of the first tech trade in RBPB1, for instance.

[Rodge]

Wow, it's an excellent plan if you can pull it off.

I do have a strategy for getting multiple religions spread widely, but so far it only works for 2 religions; first of all I get Hinduism spread around (Mutski, India, Ottomans, HRE, Carthage, my 2 southern neighbours), which would give half of the cities in the world converted, and to help them along I make AP while my state religion is Hindu. But once I near Completion...revolt to a minor religion in the city, which isn't spread widely, and complete the AP in the minor religion, making that much more valuable, and gift that around. That way I could cover some cities twice and the rest one, maybe, but a total of 150 base gpt from those 2 religions wouldn't be that unreasonable.

Is it just coincidence that you are spiritual, or was this an idea you had going into the game? Being able to revolt to a new religion the turn before building the AP is masterful, you could have the old religion still spreading around happily right up to the turn the AP appears.

Will your allies not be a little upset if they spend hammers spreading your religion around their cities (as I imagine you'd only gift them a single missionary?) - only for you to make the AP religion a minority one that you control later? Or would you take on the burden of all the religion spreading to your allies via your own missionaries?

[Krill]

Religion is a many faceted subsection of the game. It comes with a multitude of trade offs. I gave up BW and Pottery early to make the play for Hinduism (if I beelining BW I could get it around t54), so my economic output will be much lower than any other civ, and my growth will be worse from lack of granaries. The upside is that I get access to extra civics that increase the efficiency of my empire, extra happiness so I can slave a little harder when I do get BW, stuff that favours vertical growth. When combined with my civ and easy GP, it allows some extra horizontal growth due to the ease of shrine creation. The simple cost of a missionary is usually paid back within 5 turns though, if you are running OR and have the Shrine, when you consider the cost of popping borders.

I am not going to be in a position to create all of the missionaries for other civs; in fact I'm hoping to get a few free religion spreads to others once I get the shrine down. I simply can't afford the hammers for the missionaries, for the WC I'd need to guard them on the trips around the map, so it's going to be one missionary per team. However, the other teams then get the advantages of religion without having to pay the upfront cost of researching religion early in the game and winning the race. This is why a lot of people like to get one of the later religions, and why I need to grab them asap: I need to remove their negotiating position where they refuse one of my religions and head for one that has a lower opportunity cost associated with it.

The AP is, IMO, fairly overrated, at 500 hammers and no bonus resource. Yes, you can end up getting a few free hammers, but they still have an upfront cost that is quite dependent on the city. OTOH, if you have some decent building multipliers, a monastery might only cost 40 base hammers, and provide back 3 adjusted hammers per turn, in which case after turn 14 it is pure profit which is pretty nice. Would they be upset if they didn't get this advantage? Logically, I can't see why, as they will only have invested in x missionaries whereas I've bent the entire game plan on this and made the corresponding cuts that have cost me, and if they really wanted the AP religion they could have done something about it instead of being handed it on a silver platter. To the use the cliché, they want their cake, and to eat it, and I be blunt about that if they ever bitch to me. However, as leverage to get another 100gpt it is probably a wise investment.

I'm not going to tell anyone that I will make Hindu the AP religion, which is partly why I want to get people to agree to a plan to spread Hinduism, if not asap, then on a fairly strict timetable (that isn't punitive). This isn't specifically why I took SPI, I took that more because I wanted the late game flexibility in Civics to swap in and out of Nationhood, US (I have always been planning a "Shrine economy"), in and out of Caste (Artist bomb), slavery (mass slaving an army in 5 turns) and Serfdom (to make us of limited workers, or quickly road where someone thought I couldn't) in the mid game, same with OR, Pacifism and Theo...it's a trait I can make use of because my biggest strength in these games is finding a tactical advantage and cramming it down an enemies throat. If I have all of this flexibility, then my enemies will have to guard against a lot more possibilities and hopefully spread themselves quite thin.

[Krill]

Well, that lion didn't attack, so it's just another turn, slogging onwards. Worker 2 (Colon) due in 2 turns, growth in 5 (0 overflow), sheep pasture started, growth in 6 (2 overflow).

[T-hawk]

The AP is, IMO, fairly overrated, at 500 hammers

AP is 400

OTOH, if you have some decent building multipliers, a monastery might only cost 40 base hammers, and provide back 3 adjusted hammers per turn, in which case after turn 14 it is pure profit which is pretty nice.

Wrong comparison, need to compare base to base or adjusted to adjusted. Either way it's a 20 turn payback period, which is still good. When I have the AP religion, AP temples and monasteries (if >30 turns remaining before Sci Method) are usually my first build after granary, often even before the forge. Definitely first if I also have Sankore or Spiral Minaret.

[Krill]

AP is 400

Hmm, that helps. Won't cost as many chops.

Wrong comparison, need to compare base to base or adjusted to adjusted. Either way it's a 20 turn payback period, which is still good. When I have the AP religion, AP temples and monasteries (if >30 turns remaining before Sci Method) are usually my first build after granary, often even before the forge. Definitely first if I also have Sankore or Spiral Minaret.

Gah, that's what I get for not paying attention. Thanks for the correction. However, it is probaby best to do adjusted with adjusted because that way you can take into account OR or PS or any other bonus which would cloud hte issue.

[zakalwe]

You mentioned the importance of working with Ruff, and also keeping religions a scarce commodity. Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

[shadyforce]

Wow, I haven't been following to closely the past week or so. I see things have gotten very interesting diplomatically!

[Krill]

You mentioned the importance of working with Ruff, and also keeping religions a scarce commodity. Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Probably not, unless you are considering letting Ruff tech CoL, but I'm probably wring there. Considering he seems to have had a slow start, I could probably bulb it before he researched it.