[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[pocketbeetle]

(6:32:52 PM) Selrahc: If you need that site for your big three then it's obviously a lot more important to you than it is to me

Still rereading that conversation through.

Selrahc hasn't realised that I get four cities on a large map.
Oh good, that means he'll be underestimating me by 33% then.

Edit: One last thing.
If Selrahc takes out Sareln, then he'll be able to build Drifa the White Dragon eventually.
Not great, but oh well.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 58:

First off, the bear who munched on Clogz has decided he’s still hungry and that Beefy is the dessert.
It has Combat III for +60%, roughly 7.5 str, which I can’t compete with at this time.
It looks like I’m going to have to play a dancing game with that bear, and hope to push it away with newly founded cultural borders. Not good.
Beefy moves 1S.



Vanilla Ice and the Savant moved 1SW.
Fluff and the workers moved as planned, continuing to road (to the bear ).



After clicking end turn, there’s 3 turns left until the GSci pops and Cartography is researched, 4 turns to the first settler.


Demographics:

• Sareln gained cultural score as expected (23 points).
  
• Bob gained a tech, seems to be researching something without a prereq.
  
• Archduke gained a whopping 34 points this turn, 23 cultural score + 11 tech.
  
• Selrahc gained 13 points, which is cultural score for Jingle Bells (founded T38 + 20 turns = T58 )
  

Typical, do a tech update and next turn two other players decide to research a tech. :rolleyes:
Alright here we go again.


Techs:

[b]Bob: [/b]
Last turn that he researched a tech: T37 -> Assigned Edit: Calendar [strike]Anc Chants or Crafting[/strike]
Next turn he researched a tech: T46
Therefore gap = 9 turns
GNP during period: 16-17 ie research 14-15.
9 turns x 14.5 = 130b
At 129b, Crafting is a nice match.
There are only two reasons to take Crafting, either Bob is heading for Mining or he has wines in his BFC.

Bob:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T46 -> Assigned Crafting
Next turn he researched a tech: T58
Therefore gap = 12 turns
GNP during period: 20 ie research 18.
12 turns x 18 = 216b

At 215b, Mining is a nice match again.
If he is researching something without a prereq, then it can only be Anc Chants.

Archduke:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T23 -> Assigned Exploration or Ancient Chants.
Next turn he researched a tech: T44

Therefore gap = 21 turns
GNP during period: ~12 ie research ~10.
21 turns x 10 = 210b

Slight complication with this one, as 210b is close to both Mysticism (215b) and AH (193b).
I’ve got him down for 3 possible paths:

However, because we know that when he researched the first tech he carried over a 5b overflow (10 turns of 9 research = 90 – 85 = 5) it’s Mysticism.

So Archduke: Anc Chants -> Mysticism.
Expecting the next tech to be Calendar, AH or Exploration, in order of likelihood, with a couple of outside possibilities such as Education (cottages).

Archduke:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T44 -> Assigned Mysticism.
Next turn he researched a tech: T58
Therefore gap = 14 turns
GNP during period:
T44-50 = 11 ie research 9.
T51-58 =13 ie research 11.
6 turns x 9 + 7 turns * 11 = 131b

I’ll take one order of Crafting please. Wasn’t expecting it though.

On T51 the Rival Worst (Archduke) GNP increased by 2, from 11 to 13, and has remained consistently there.
I know Archduke has Mysticism, and I think there’s a good chance that was him building a Sage Council.
Rival Worst GNP is now 15, so there's a high likelihood that Archduke is researching something with a prereq.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 59:

That bear is becoming irritating now.
Beefy moves SE, let’s see if it follows.



Now that relations are slightly smoother with Selrahc, and given the animal problem over at Yellow dot, I’m going to try and get Vanilla Ice back faster.
Split the GC from the Savant and join with the scout.



Worker roading is on track (groan).

Demographics:

• Bob gained 23 points cultural score (so he has zero water in his capital’s radius).
  By contrast I gained 10 points.
  
• Interestingly Sareln gained 5 points ie +1 pop, while his capital remained unchanged.
  Rival Av Land Area gives a clue, and the simple way that we’ve learned of checking is ofc:
  
  
  
  That’s pretty damn fast, considering all the barbs that have been sniffing around his capital.
  

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 60:

Selrahc dropped me a note to say that he’d moved some skeleton-hunting warriors near me, and not to worry about Vanilla Ice or the Savant…

…I still moved Vanilla Ice just in case.

I’ve said this before somewhere, the loss of the Savant would not be such a big deal, I’d be much more annoyed to lose the GC that Vanilla Ice is carrying.
Also, if you look really really hard at the promotions for that warrior, you’ll see he’s carrying two items: the Axe and a Heal Potion.
Has Selrahc been opening lairs too?


Over at Yellow dot, the bear continues to audition beautifully for the part of “next species to join the endangered list”.
I think 3 warriors, combined with a few lucky rolls when making the bear attack across a river might be able to kill it, but I need to keep Boggy B fogbusting on that hill.



So in the meantime we continue to dance, Beefy is heading back to his forested hill, Fluff covers the stacked workers.



Ending turn brings the ETA on Cartography and the GSci down to 1 turn, settler in 2.


Demographics:

• Rival best GNP: is now Sareln?
  Instead of his GNP going down when he founded a city, it seems to have gone up! Has someone explained to him that’s not how this game works?
  He doesn’t have Calendar or Crafting for commerce resources, so I’d imagine it’s him building a SC, possibly running a Sci spec also, it’s a serious jump.
  
• Bob’s Crop Yield continues to inch up, he’s busy farming lots of land.
  
• Cull gained a tech.
  

Techs:

Cull:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T39 -> Assigned Mining.
Next turn he researched a tech: T47
Therefore gap = 8 turns
GNP during period: 13, ie 11 research.
8 turns x 11 = 88b.
Either Exploration or Anc Chants, can’t tell.

Cull:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T47 -> Exp or Anc Chants.
Next turn he researched a tech: T59
Therefore gap = 12 turns
GNP during period: 16, ie 14 research.
12 turns x 14 = 168b.
Assume it’s a level 2 tech and he’s been getting a prereq bonus, that leaves Fishing or Calendar at 172b.
Which one? Depends on what he researched on T47 unfortunately, which I don’t know.

If it was Exploration, then I’d say he researched it as a prereq for Fishing, in order to get a coastal food up.
Cull is in the same boat as Sareln regarding roads – he doesn’t need them any time soon; his area looked pretty hilly from what Vanilla Ice saw.

If it was Ancient Chants, then it could be either of the two.
I’d explain away the wierdness of researching Ancient Chants (pointless tech in itself) and not researching a tech it unlocks by saying that’s because of Athlete showing up to help out.

Graphs will hopefully tell me soon:
Food jump = Fishing,
GNP jump/Switch to Agrarianism/Capital growing beyond happy cap = Calendar.

Heron Throne alarm bells are starting to tinkle though.


Diplo:

Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:15:26 AM
Subject: Warrior Party

Hi Selrahc,

Thanks for the heads up Re: the battle-scarred warrior with the flaming axe.
Agree that the skeleton barrow needs to go soon.
If you're interested in picking up floaters, there's a lone skeleton three tiles East of the Wheat, so two East of Vanilla Ice's current position.

I'm currently dancing with a Combat 3 Bear around my capital, which is as much fun as it sounds, and explains why I'm keen to get my scout back.
Did you notice Sareln has planted a second city?

Kind Regards,
Pb, needs-a-new-bearskin-rug Boy-King

[sunrise089]

Do you have one warrior covering multiple workers outside your territory? How do you know there isn't a Giant Spider about?

[pocketbeetle]

Do you have one warrior covering multiple workers outside your territory?

Cool huh?
And if you think that's fun, you're really going to like the next turn's moves.

How do you know there isn't a Giant Spider about?

Giant Spiders follow the usual Barb rules of needing a fogged tile to spawn, so until recently they'll have been prevented from appearing.

They also seem to have additional rules, typically only appearing in forests or on hills, they don't move much, but will rarely delay in attacking an adjacent warrior. So if Boggy B and Beefy have been safe up until now, it's unlikely there's one around.

It will be annoying if a Spider shows up, but frankly two movers are worrying me more at this stage.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 61:

Selrahc’s super warrior attacked and killed something this turn, he’s damaged down to 3 (/4) str.
Vanilla Ice moves W-NW, next turn will move SW-W.
The Savant moves onto the same tile as Selrahc’s stacked warriors.



Over at Yellow dot, unsurprisingly the bear is still being annoying.



Had to think long and hard about this one, had the option to play safe or take a risk.
If you think I played safe, you’ve not been paying enough attention to this thread.

Beefy moved back onto his hill, gained sight of most of the surrounding area.
Bob the worker moved NE-N, Bobbin Threadbare moved NE-NE.

Considered stacking both workers on the tile 1W of Beefy, but couldn’t quite make myself do it.
This way, the pretty much worst case scenario is I lose one worker.
Fluff moved NW onto the forest.



Most annoying move the bear could make next turn: move NE to threaten Beefy and both workers.
However I would guess that it will move W, as Boggy B on the hill is clearly visible to it.

Clicking end turn brought in Cartography and a GSci in Kwythellar.




Demographics:

• Cull conveniently switched to Agrarianism this turn, so Calendar it is.
  Still don’t know the tech he researched before that however.
  
• Sareln’s GNP now at 22.
  He’s jumped from 16 to 22 over the last couple of turns, with very little change in pop, his Mfg Goods have fallen slightly.
  I’d say that all lines up with a Sci spec being hired.
  It would be nice to find out where he’s planted his new city however, to get an idea of the maintenance costs – they seem to be very low for Sareln. If it is a Sci spec, then he’s got 23 turns until a GSci pops.
  

Regarding the worker moves: I’m going to look really stupid if I lose a worker for the sake of getting a road built a couple of turns earlier, but I think it’s necessary.

I’m feeling a bit of pressure with Sareln having already founded his second city.
He’s not even Expansive, so you can see the difference between starting with land based food resources and some forest for decent production (Selrahc, Sareln), and starting on the coast with only one forested hill (I'm currently working a 0f/2h plains hill...).
That time pressure is compounded by the T71 trait switch coming up. Would really like to get a SC built quickly in Yellow dot, while I still get double hammers for it.

Fortunately the GSci Academy is going to help me bash through Crafting and Mining pretty damn quickly, and mines are going to help Kwythellar a lot with the hammer heavy schedule of Heron Throne + Pact of the Nilhorn + extra settlers + being the military pump.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 62:

Cartography splashscreen greeted me on loading the save.

I’m trying to delay trading maps with Selrahc until Yellow dot is founded (~3 turns hopefully).
It looks like I don’t need OB to get Vanilla Ice and the Savant back home.

Those two moved as planned this turn.


Over at Yellow dot, the bear moved as expected.



Beefy fortified on the hill, Bob the worker joined him, Bobbin started roading, Fluff moved NE, Boggy B unfortunately had to leave his hill.



Not sure where the bear will move next, possibly onto the hill?
Again, moving NE to harrass the worker would be the worst move.



Meanwhile GSci constructed an Academy.
GNP skyrocketed, and that’s while researching something without a prereq.

Let’s hope no-one looks at the GNP graph anytime soon.
I can’t start sandbagging my research, don’t want the gold and need the Fishing and Mining techs urgently.


Demographics:

Nothing much changing, Sareln seems to be working less hammers and more food.

.

[pocketbeetle]

Forts:

This topic is worth briefly touching upon.
Forts are changed for FFH2, enabled at Construction (~tier 3 tech), they no longer act like ports, so if you want to connect a resource to your shipping routes you need to build an honest city there (not a problem for the Kuriotates ofc). On the positive side however, FFH2 forts auto-upgrade to stronger improvements over time (castles then citadels), akin to cottage -> town mechanics in base Civ4, but without the requirement of working the tile.

The effects of each upgrade are as follows:

• Fort – provides +10% defense to anyone in the tile and +5% defense to allies within a 1 tile range
  
  
• Castle – provides +25% defense and +10% heal rate to anyone in the tile and a +10% defense to allies within a 2 tile range
  
  
• Citadel – provides +40% defense, +20% heal rate and +1 visibility to anyone in the tile and a +15% defense to allies within a 3 tile range
  

I think the idea with this change was to introduce an element of strategy/military control over the surrounding area, unrelated to the usual culture mechanics, akin to ye olde days when castles used to have a field of influence.
It works okay, although the bonus is arguably too small to require a player to focus on fort building.
A citadel on a hill is not to be sniffed at however, +65% defense that can’t be bombarded down.
Importantly, the fort does have some uses beyond just defending a single tile, some of which can be helpful for the Kuriotates.

Firstly, if you locate a fort on the diagonal just outside a megacity’s BFC, preferably in the backlines, it’ll happily upgrade to a citadel over time, eventually providing that city with +15% defense.

Secondly, they are an excellent way of getting some extra defense into settlements.
You may have noticed that culture provides less defense in FFH2, 10% for each border expansion rather than 20%. For settlements, who will normally only gain +3ish culture, that means it’s unrealistic to expect anything beyond the third expansion for 30% defense.
There are very few other ways to get defense into those settlements. You can’t produce buildings, which just leaves magic spells, of which the only one worth noting is Earth level 1: Wall of Stone (+25% defense but the caster has to remain in the city) and forts.
A fort placed in the backlines behind the settlement will upgrade, eventually helping to give some defense. Additionally, since settlements don’t really work tiles, it can be placed wherever is most suitable.

Thirdly, the fort can be placed to help defog/defend a trade road to another player from being pillaged by barbarians.
The +1 visibility and increased healing at citadel ties in nicely with that role.

Obviously settlements are still preferable over forts for placement on the front lines, for reasons of cultural control, resource grabbing and faster to reach the 20% and 30% defense marks.


Technical stuff:

• Once built, forts auto-upgrade after a certain number of turns based on game speed.
  They do not need to be worked and can be located in unclaimed neutral territory.
  For Quick speed:
  • Fort: 6 worker turns to build.
    
    
  • Castle: 13 turns to upgrade from a fort.
    
    
  • Citadel: 26 turns to upgrade from a castle.
    
  
  There’s no way of decreasing the upgrade time.
  
  
• Allied units to receive the bonuses are determined by the nationality of the unit occupying the fort, or who has cultural control of the tile it is located on, in that order.
  
  
• A fort counts as a specific tile improvement by itself and so cannot provide access to any resource it is located on (imagine having a camp on a corn tile – no use).
  
  
• Forts also have no effect on trade routes, cannot be used as a port by naval units.
  
  
• Can be pillaged for minimal gold: fort 5, castle 10, citadel 15 gold.
  

So how do we put this into practice? Like so:



That 3rd city location is extremely tentative but if I were to plant there, then the tile 2N of the rice would be ideal for a fort, covering both frontline cities without interfering with BFCs.

All in all, the fort is a useful little improvement, and well worth a couple of midgame worker turns in my opinion.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 63:

Vanilla Ice moved W-S this turn to end on the hill, next turn will move W-NW, roughly 4 turns until he reaches yellow dot.
The Savant continues to trot on behind.



Over at Kwythellar, the settler which completed at the end of last turn has moved to the staging point, ready for a mad dash along the Kuriotates “Highway to Nowhere”.

The bear moved roughly as expected, but that left me with a bit of a dilemna:



I need to either completely defog the forest area around the silks, or place at least one warrior on the pitstop tile in the river U-bend.
Fluff, the warrior in the NW was the intended candidate for this, except the bear being on a hill has thrown up a problem.

We know it likes to follow things it can see, and for the current plan to work I need it to not move along any of the cyan arrows, as they’ll either block off the settler or cause a change in plan.
If Fluff is visible to the bear standing on the U-bend, there’s a decent chance the bear will move there and cause me all kind of hysterics, so I’ve gone with plan…F!
Standing for funhappyfunfun.



Fluff moved NE to check there was nothing nasty on the wheat tile, then Beefy moved SW to defog some of that forest and will probably cover the settler next turn.

Boggy B moved NW onto the hill and started shouting Your Momma jokes at the bear in order to get it’s attention, hopefully it’ll move SW aiming to split the warrior and settler.

Meanwhile the workers are left out to dry, again.
Only Bob on the forested hill is really in any danger though, and there are only two tiles from which a two-mover could reach him.
My area’s been pretty quiet for barbs so far – I’ve only seen Conan, courtesy of Selrahc, and the two bears which came from the bear den.
I’ll take the risk.

Worst move the bear could do: move S to threaten the settler, blocking the road.

Edit: COCK.
Only just realised, I could’ve left the settler back within cultural borders and still made the same moves.
Would’ve lessened the chance of the bear moving South.
Arrggghhhhh!
I know what I need right now:

Demographics:

• Selrahc Mfg Goods continues to stay at #1, even rising a touch.
  
  
• Power levels for everyone have remained constant for the last couple of turns, guess everyone’s focussing on workers/settlers/buildings now.
  
  
• Bob gained a tech.
  Don’t need to check this one: he’s researched it in around 5 turns, which means it’s a tier 1 tech, therefore Ancient Chants.