[SPOILERS] PB20 Lurker Thread of Perfect Hindsight

[mackoti]

I understand wanting to end the game if the players aren't having fun anymore, but I think this should be recorded in the annals of history as a draw between Seven and Mack.

Actualy i consider not , because right now i have a huge advantage, over 3,5 milions soldier points, my cities from grimace are far beter then seven got from others and next turns for seven would be fight to keep any of his position which he got from wetbandit, so he to have any chanse to win will be like others to came in his help and somehow ahve a general dogpile, which is not that easy to do, because for example i think gawdzak would more benefit from us fighting then helping seven out,and you must consider while seven will get units i will get 500K power every single turn.So no in this case lurkers didnt had perfect hindsight.And btw i had fun butchering seven civ and same taking out grimace.and i like managing large empires actualy i love that when i ahvetime and right now even iw as playing turn in 3-4 sesion i found time.

Btw i got a victory 'nicked' from me in pb 13, so this will not happen again here.

[Old Harry]

Sure Mack, but only if you show us what you did .

[mackoti]

Sure Mack, but only if you show us what you did .

You can log and check.that way you'll get the perfect picture.

[Old Harry]

I don't have the mod installed. Jojo, you've logged in - care to post some pics for us?

[SevenSpirits]

I agree with Mackoti - my position was worse, and that is why when I wanted to stop playing I offered a concession instead of a draw or a choice of the two. I do not think it was set in stone of course, but Mackoti's position was better. My advantages were:

1) Tech rate of roughly 3000 vs 2000 bpt, with mech infantry or modern armor not too far out
2) Bombers already teched and built
3) A bunch of factories and 3 gorges dam about to come online
4) General tech lead, and a bigger lead in space race techs
5) Ability to swap civics every turn for free - relevantly, ability to whip and draft
6) Next golden age due much sooner

But the disadvantages were greater:

1) Much smaller modern standing army
2) Much lower production (factories + 3 gorges dam was only catching me up at best)
3) Impossible-to-defend former wetbandit cities (they are all coastal, and across water from my core)
4) Far fewer conquests currently in revolt and coming online soon

If I had been as happy to manage such a lot of cities and units as Mackoti is, I would have focused my builds over the last 50 turns more on war and less on teching to space. An endless modern war just did not hold any appeal to me and for that reason I played as though it would not happen (though I did try to deter it of course). My strategy was also harmed compared to what I had hoped for by Mackoti attacking Grimace earlier, Grimace dying so quickly, and Gawdzak not signing a defensive pact.

I'm probably never going to play a civ game this big without a partner again, I just really don't like managing that much stuff by myself.

[wetbandit]

"3) Impossible-to-defend former wetbandit cities (they are all coastal, and across water from my core)"

You could have left them with me to remove that disadvantage.

I had a fun time playing this game. I went for culture because I had hoped that there would be a dogpile on Mack and/or Seven that would leave me alone until it got interesting. I don't think I ever would have got close, but why not go for the .1 or 1% chance at a RB legend.

I didn't really have a good way to expand over land, but didn't take opportunities early to establish a second core, if you will, overland. That would have been very difficult to defend as the game progressed. Because of my low land output, PRO wasn't as good a trait for me as time went on because I had a disproportionally lower amount of tiles that got the bonus (~35ish at my zenith).

I also failed to translate the great early start into something better by crashing my economy around T85 and not fixing it ASAP. That directly led to me being slow to the AP (which wouldn't have been too bad for me) and to winning Lib and/or Econ. I'm not sure it would have helped because I had a difficult path to expansion, but I could have had a redoubt in HAK land if I tried. I also could have had something more on my island with retep if I didn't totally botch the war he didn't boat my city a turn before I planned to attack him.

I think Mack was clearly in the lead once his MFG took off in the medieval-early renaissance. Despite Seven's land advantage he established afterward, and to put the game back in doubt, Mack could project power all the way around the world and throw tons of units at him.

Anyway, thanks for the game everyone, I enjoyed the mod and especially liked the early game twist with the new AGR/PRO. And congrats Mack on the win.

[SevenSpirits]

"3) Impossible-to-defend former wetbandit cities (they are all coastal, and across water from my core)"

You could have left them with me to remove that disadvantage.

You know I mostly just attacked you because your culture was super annoying.

[SevenSpirits]

Any post-game thoughts on the mod stuff by the way? I was happy with most of it.

I do think communism needs a nerf. I've shied away from worrying about most of the late game stuff like Cristo Redentor, but Communism actually comes a lot earlier and I think it's too good. I say this because I think I had pretty much the ideal situation to not go for it (great merc setup, a corp, not needing liberalism since I captured Shwedagon Paya) and I still think that state property would have been clearly better. SP really shouldn't be better than a corp, because you get the corp an era later. Right now, I think Communism is the most broken tech in the game - the stories about corps somehow competing with it (or even being overpowered, haha) do not seem accurate.

To my regret, I never fought any naval battles so the naval initiative mechanic didn't do much except make me think more about peacetime boat positioning. The wharves seemed good though.

Tech cost scaling seemed to work well. Starting tech cost changes, MC cost change, War Elephants, Swords, scout starts, workboats not requiring fishing, GLH and colossus nerf, Sushi nerf, wonder resource bonuses reduced to +50%... all seemed good. Traits we've already discussed some, and a couple changes have been made there. Civs looked fine from my perspective. Germany and Russia both seem fair and fun. How was India? Oh, and no one went for nukes - they might be too expensive to be worthwhile now.

Anything else seem broken still?

[mackoti]

Well , i like pro alot(everyone by this time knows i love production) is gaves small advantages at begging but late game at leas in my game was excelent , i have near 180 tiles worked wich benefit from pro and like 160 from those get the factories benefit and if consider the drydoc factor for building boats or the iron works, heroic epic i thin i was gaining more then 400 production just from this trait.I think in all my empire i have 3 farms which are non resources farm, my cities are smaler cause for city to be very good you need jut 6-14 tiles to work.Yes i have 2-3 cities size 6 which each of them is getting a tank every 3 turns(i know a bit crazy).But there is a price to pay less cottages and you need to adapt your strategy alot for this type of play. About imperialist changes were non factor in game.
About nerfing comunism, why juts make another good solution? Do you want me quit playing civ, you know I can't play without it...

Many time i tough i have no chanse at winning , so there is a lesson keep playing, keep planing even seems everyone gets an easier job your time will came.

This game showed me how much a strong opening combo can make an imposible position to a position you can win.I think chosing my combo was the best solution for the setup i got, if i was for example org/philo i would have been one of the victims here.Very close neighbours,so i had advantage get cities fast , workers were coming online at incredible speed so doing an conquest with Ha, axes and cast was very posible, i cant see doin this with other combo in this situation.I think this game chanched a litle bit my conception about civ, that is must to have a strong starter to be rlevant in any situation, otherwise there is no way you can prevail.

[Haram]

Congrats Mack When Seven has taken a big share of wetbandit, incl. most important cities, I thought this game is over. I knew, you can convert that huge MFG into scary army, but I didn't expect you will catch up so quickly.


Special thanks to.... Grimace You probably don't know that, but you brought my interest back to this game. I was quite discouraged after the rough beginning and didn't report much. Since you attacked me I had a feeling, I was constantly on the verge of destruction. That brought my motivation back and I set myself a goal to survive till the end