Unfinished business - SG for improving at Civ 4 (sic)

[Brian Shanahan]

Regarding the combat luck, blame me for rolling all the 20s in my set. You can see some of the odds I posted.
Regarding BaS getting the scientist, my original ire was a somewhat deliberate overreaction. I quite possibly would have done the same myself, but I'd have looked to pull a few units out elsewhere.
If we've graphs on everyone, I'd put even espionage on everyone while we're at peace, and once we're gearing up for war start piling in on the target. Which reminds me, a few spies about now would be nice.

@Zalson, take the game away, we kind of skipped you out between me and shallow_thought, so you've got dibs.

[Zalson]

Got it.

[RefSteel]

Regardless of combat luck, good or ill, things are looking pretty good; looking forward to shallow_though's report! (And now Zalson's too? Yay!)

A possible name for the coastal copper iceball: "The Hudson" - it's the ghost ship often seen around the place an actual ship of that name sank over a hundred years ago, off the Keweenaw peninsula in copper country in Michigan, where it certainly gets nice and cold! Admittedly, I dunno how I would find a picture and a ~literary quote for it, but that's my lookout! Central Mine (a ghost town in that area) or Keweenaw itself might be good names too, though they're places rather than ghosts per se.

Catching up to that point though:

The very newest city founded by the ghostly people is Zar (rhymes with air). This spirit is known for its habit of possessing people - mostly women - and according to east African myth requires highly elaborate ritual parties to exorcise. For the illustration (of the ghost, not the dance/party/exorcism) I'll turn to genki-kid of deviantart.com:


"Prophet Suliyman controlled himself and asked the creature to descend to earth and tell him who he was, but the Zar refused. Zar, who loves beauty and fun, would come only at the end of the world, and possess men and women..." -Haja Amna, as quoted by Baqie Badawi Muhammad, "The Sudanese Concept of Beauty, Spirit, Possession, and Power" in Folklore Forum, volume 26 (1/2)

The quote isn't exactly the most typical Zar story, but again: Folklore! I found it intriguing because there's some ambiguity about what's actually going on here, compounded by the interpretation made by the article's author. Refusing Suliyman in this type of folktale is not normally something that a djinni or other supernatural being can just trivially do - but this one won't respond until the end of the world no matter what Suliyman says or does. This is all well and good if the bit about it loving beauty and fun is a curious little throw-in, but there seems to be an implication, picked up by the author of the article, that the Zar is able to resist Suliyman because it loves beauty and fun! Maybe the idea is that, while a djinni might be tricked into a bottle if it thinks it's getting something like wealth and power, a Zar isn't interested in any of that stuff - and not only isn't Suliyman renowned for heart-stopping beauty, but going into a bottle (or whatever) doesn't seem like any fun at all!

The author does seem to think that Zars are largely harmless though, thanks to this throw-away line - which is bonkers. I get that the Zar cult seems to be centered around its cool exorcism parties, which is way better than the various superstitions across the continent that favor killing "witches" in horrible ways, but the Zar itself is clearly bad news, no matter what version of the story you use. I wouldn't want anyone or anything, real or imaginary, possessing me without my permission - even if the spirit in question just made me do stuff I like doing anyway like playing old video games, researching neat ghosts I'd never previously heard of, and posting about them online!

(An imaginary friend "possessing" me with my permission is a whole different story, of course!)

[shallow_thought]

Finally, the full report. I need a new computer - trying to do these reports on a 19" laptop is driving me nuts. I'm constantly swapping screens and the screenshots are just too large to fit neatly in Paint (and when I zoom out, they're too small to edit comfortably). Or maybe I'm just disorganised .

I feel we need stuff to kill Boudicca, so will have to leave Mansa to tech towards Lib in peace. Just so long as we kill him before he builds the Taj...
So, switch tech to Monotheism, to line up for GA civics swap; settle great general in BaS to get more XP on the mace; HE is next build there.

T161: AP vote comes in - we're at war with Monty. Other than trying to take a peek with a chariot we have over there, I don't do anything this turn.



I note that we are now behind Mansa in votes. That might be a good thing in the short term as it will definitely split the AI in a victory vote (Izzy has AP and is current Pope).
While it's nice to be part of a big Hindu block, I don't count on it lasting. Charley has been Buddhist before and I suspect will soon be conquering Monty's Buddhist cities; Izzy has been Jewish and also founded Christianity. It could all change very quickly (one reason I have not prioritised Hindu temples).

Monotheism in, go for Monarchy.

Start a quick theatre in Brocken to raise happy cap with dyes.

I hire an extra specialist at YM now that whip unhappy has worn off rather than work a plains farm; gets GA one turn faster.

I note that Brocken's GPP pool is a mix of GE and spy, so I'm going to need to use BaS to get the GS for an academy.

Brian has some well-placed workers in the desert near Khazak; Boudicca sends a cat sniffing after them, but they step one tile forward, road it and the cat dies to the follow-up maceman.


T162: Monarchy in, go for Engineering (science off for a bit).

Mansa gets music great artist and I realise that we could have beaten him to it; I'm not 100% sure I would have gone for it, as I really want the civics and military techs, but it sure would have been nice to have another great person (also crying slightly over beakers sitting in philosophy, although it was polite of Brian to give me the choice of a Lib push). I certainly should have noticed the opportunity!

I start moving troops on Durnovaria; in the north I follow up the kill of the cat by moving what we have against Khazak. As stated earlier, I might have been better off gathering more troops out of sight.

Looking at our large worker force and some of our low food cities, I think about replacing some riverside mines with windmills. I'd definitely look to do this if we were FIN, but am not sure that it's ideal otherwise. But we could really do with some more food at BaS in particular. I also plan to lay down watermills on plains around some production cities. They're meh right now even compared to farms but we're not that far from replaceable parts, and they'll keep getting better. I think it's worth re-wiring Christmas Past for max production, even at the cost of its (one) village, so I start planning.


T163: Great Scientist born at Yakob Marley. I don't even note his name before he gets turned into a Golden Age.
We change civics to HR/Bureau/Caste/OR. I run a load of scientists at BaS, calculating that I can empty its foodbox but not actually kill anyone before getting a Great Scientist in four turns. I'm a little less extreme at Brocken but stack up specialists there too (scientists when running low science slider, merchants when running high science slider - based on my rough understanding of something T-Hawk wrote). Aim to get a random great person out around end of GA.

YM starts pumping Hindu missionaries - we desperately want this in cities building GL and Moai. I considered holding off a few turns on OR, but we want it in BaS for HE.

Bombard defenses down in Durnovaria.


T164: Capture Durnovaria. Lost three suicide cats, then a CR cat I expected to survive at 86%. Also lost an axe at similar odds. But we killed an HA, three longbows, a chariot, a spear and three cats. It's only got a lighthouse, but I keep it - it's in range of fish when the next target city's culture goes, has the copper and an otherwise unclaimed riverside grass tile. Also, I have hopes that coastal cities will have extra value in a few turns time...

T165: Boudicca counter-attacks Durnovaria with HAs. Accross a river, against undamaged maces I had held back for garrison duty. The HAs die.

A counter-stack appears, heading for XP (again). I move the damaged troops from our stack back into XP to heal with medic. They should be able to kill the stack in a couple of turns. Some fresh cats / maces incoming for us here as well.



Start bombarding Khazak with the cats I've got; more cats and maces en-route up north.


T166: Stack advances, pillages that poor pasture again. I decide to let them have a round of bombardment while I heal; even if they move onto the hill instead, I reckon they will die to maces and maybe one suicide cat.

I push a small stack into Celtic territory near Durnovaria. Maces feel pretty safe on hills or in woods, and this blocks the road Boudicca would have to take to counter-attack the city. I want visibility on the city in the fog...

T167: HA hits my exploring stack and dies. It's a bit closer than I'd like though - we want pikes.

Engineering in (yay pikes!), decide to pick up Archery in 1t at 0% science. A handful of crossbows would be nice and a longbow or two would do for garrison at captured cities.

Great scientist at BaS! City can now go back to max production of HE. I played around with numbers before the GA and civic switch, and it seems that YM is clearly better than Brocken for the academy for at least the moment, so that's where the scientist heads.

I would like to go back to slavery, and do a whip to guarantee the GL, but have to wait a turn.

Speaking of wonders, we're first to Engineering and in a GA: I start Notre Dame at YM, even though we don't have stone. I'm expecting war weariness to really hurt at points in this game (Mansa has SoZ). There's one forest left there that I start to prepare to chop.


T168: Archery in, start Feudalism

I attack out of XP. First attack is C2 mace against HA at 78%. I lose. I also lose a C2 axe against C2 chariot at 73%. Overall these numbers are about expected given the number of battles, but losing that good mace (rather than, say, another axe later in the sequence) hurts.

I realise belatedly that we have a maceman fortified at Inky (the old "Blue Dot"). Oh, well, maybe we can quickly pump out a couple of cheap archers to garrison this and Zar; actually, we can't - everywhere is busy except BaS which has just finished HE, and has too much overflow to build archers! And next turn we'll have longbows, which are more expensive. Oh well. Maceman heads for the front anyway, he's not actually needed as MP right now.

Boudicca also has a new stack around, mostly HAs. My scouting stack drops back into forest. I could with a couple of pikes...



I switch to slavery and 2-pop whip the Great Lighthouse to make sure of it. This does mean we can't go into vassalage or get out of OR before the end of theGA, but I think we're OK with HR/Bureau/Slavery/OR.


T169: Great Lighthouse! Our first wonder. Bizarrely late and on a Pangaea map. But it makes that new iceball of ours profitable already, and helps all our other coastal cities too. Good call by Brian, I think, to go for this.

Boudicca retreats her cats into Bagacum, but sends a couple of HAs to roam in our territory. I send in two well-promoted spears, and the HAs die. One spear has formation, one can be given it. I would consider upgrading both to pikes if we can afford it, but will leave that up to next player.

My scouting stack finally gets sight of Camulodunum, the city in the fog. Probably planted before iron working - will we want to raze this?
(Note, pic actually from end of turnset - if anyone wants to know what the garrison was I can dig out the autosave)




T170: Feudalism in; start HBR, with the intention of Guilds next.

This is the last turn of the GA I'm afraid. We should get a great person out of Brocken, which can be used or kept as seen fit. I have finally got a stack at Khazak I'd consider attacking with and got the defenses down, but it still looks painful. We have a small reinforcement stack incoming, but that would mean two more turns delay. I've bottled this; I bombarded with one cat to take the defenses to zero and have left the decision to the next player... @Zalson, you can still attack this turn if you want!



Graphs to follow...

[shallow_thought]

OK, we're in a GA, but even so:

GNP is nice (apologies for lack of cropping - Imgur is still not playing 100% nice for me; the rest I cropped before upload).



Mfg is even nicer.



I'm loving the crop yield (that's not directly boosted by a GA, is it?)



Power is a bit interesting. We're doing OK, but Boudicca is not falling back despite her losses, which is a concern. It may not be easy to see, but her power is climbing alongside Izzy's at the end there.



The big story of the graphs is, of course, that something horrible is happening to Monty. I'm just sorry that we can't really get any kicks in ourselves while he's down. I do wonder if half of Boudicca's army is over there somewhere and we're in for a nasty shock when he dies and they come west.

And finally, the legally required "capital in a GA" shot (we don't have Moai yet!). It's ... actually it's horrible. I have it set to max production to squeeze the bonus hammers out for Notre Dame, so it's working plains farms and - an unimproved plains forest . If Zalson wants to scream and switch to actually working the blasted cottages for crying out loud, I will understand why. I'd certainly recommend reworking this completely after the GA. And given that commitment, I should have grabbed the grassland mine back from Inky when I started the wonder    (you'll note I did grab the floodplains farm to help boost the pop before and during the GA) . I keep missing these details and its annoying. Practice, practice...



EDIT: Continuing to really enjoy the city names and RefSteel's research and comments. Adds a real flavour to this game!

[haphazard1]

Looks like Monty is not enjoying life right now. Good point about your suspicions of Boudica and her army; being extra watchful for signs of troop movements is a good idea.

On the revealed Celtic city...hmmm. Size 12 with deer and fish (latter shared with Durnovaria), maybe more resources in the fog. I would not automatically raze it, even though it is on the iron and overlaps poorly with Durnovaria and a possible relocated Bagacum. Find out what is in the fog, and see what (if anything) the city might have for improvements. 12 pop is a lot to give up, if the ciy has something more to offer than just what is visible.

Interesting moves with wondeers. Great Lighthouse on a pangaea, and Notre Dame without stone. Lots of hammers that could have been military units or other things. But you do have some coastal cities to make the big light useful, and if you can get it Notre Dame on a pangaea is certainly very nice to have. You do have a fair bit of happiness already, plus monarchy is now available, so it is a big opportunity cost short term. But if you can get it, longer term I think you will be correct that the happiness will help quite a bit. Hopefully you won't get hit with a surprise stack and regret not having those troops, though.

Food graph does look very good. Hammers is shifted by the GA, but still nice to see. And GNP same -- a few turns after the GA is over it would be informative to revisit these two. Overall, looking pretty good.

[Brian Shanahan]

My thinking on the Great Lighthouse was to keep whipping units and overflowing into it. It was an interesting opportunity to get for me but not essential. I probably wouldn't have left slavery until we at least hit nationalism, and probably not even then.

Priorities that I see now that we're going into Renaissance and Enlightenment warfare,

1) Get the Globe into a quick growing city so that we can set up a draft camp. That means building six theatres.
2) Get as many Hindu buildings in as many cities as possible, the +2 hammers on each and every one will be nice
3) Get to Gunpowder, Nationalism and Steel to break open the units we want.
4) Get to Industrialisation for the final piece of the jigsaw.

If we can eat Boudica on our current set up (or at the least cripple her) I feel we can swing quickly against Mansa, and then onwards towards the rest of the chumps with the stronger units.

Oh and I've an idea for a game after this one finishes. I'll leave you with the name for now: Richard Dawkins' Revenge.

[RefSteel]

Great report - and I'm glad you're still enjoying the ghost stuff I keep posting! One note I wanted to make on the game mechanics front for the future, though the impact was small here in any case:

I think you may have misread (or misremembered) what T-Hawk wrote. The actual momentary position of the science slider on a given turn is irrelevant to the decision of whether to run merchants or scientists, except insofar as running a merchant can allow you to run a higher science slider (when you'd otherwise run out of gold) or running a scientist can "allow" you to run a lower science slider without delaying a tech by a turn. I don't have T-Hawk's report in front of me but I do remember reading it, and I believe the relevant point he made was this:

The question of merchants vs. scientists relates to the beaker and gold multipliers in their city relative to the empire's average multiplier! This means that (if ignoring the flavor of GPPs) if few of your cities have libraries and none have any other multiplier buildings, you should run caste scientists rather than caste merchants in any city that does have a library, and merchants in cities that don't (to the extent you run specialists in those cities at all, of course). In a city with both a library and your empire's only market though, as long as you have any other city with a library, you should run merchants since they get the same multiplier as scientists in that one city, while allowing you to take advantage of all the empire's libraries via the science slider.

In the actual game situation, whether Brocken Specter have a market or not, since every city that (yet) produces any commerce to speak of already has a library, while the capital has an academy on top of other multipliers (and represents a disproportionate part of the empire's average due to palace, gold, and bureau) basically any city other than Yaqob Marley should run merchants rather than scientists if it doesn't care what kind of GP it gets, so that you'll be able to run a higher science slider (even only slightly higher and only for one turn after several turns of merchant-running) and get more out of your capital multiplier buildings. (...and if you had more markets around the empire but not in Brocken Specter, scientists might come out on top again, etc.)

[Zalson]

T172: we have khazak.

[shallow_thought]

My thinking on the Great Lighthouse was to keep whipping units and overflowing into it. It was an interesting opportunity to get for me but not essential. I probably wouldn't have left slavery until we at least hit nationalism, and probably not even then.

I just popped into caste for 5 turns in order to get a guaranteed GS; as usual, I was trying to avoid the whip in a GA. That just meant that the GL was nearly complete before I knew it!

Yeah, my drive for ND is one of those ideas that seemed smarter at the time. Once we leave the GA it's going to be slower, and a couple of other civs are about to get engineering. I'm one GE away from egg on my face  - will see what Zalson managed to achieve.

Great report - and I'm glad you're still enjoying the ghost stuff I keep posting!  One note I wanted to make on the game mechanics front for the future, though the impact was small here in any case:

I think you may have misread (or misremembered) what T-Hawk wrote.  The actual momentary position of the science slider on a given turn is irrelevant to the decision of whether to run merchants or scientists

Yep, my bad. I had been reminded of this when watching a Sullla video in the last few days, and may well have misinterpreted his quick aside. I certainly came away with the idea that it was more significant when running a high science slider, which doesn't make any sense when you work through it; I need to go back and re-read the origianal article. The main point was to squeeze out another GP - I'd have even run spy specialists (shudder) if I'd had to.

T172: we have khazak.

Ooh. Shiny. Will look forward to the report. I'm installing BTS on my travel laptop as an experiment, so may be able to at least view the save. But assume that I won't be able to play again until early Feb; if you and Brian want and are able to keep alternating, that's fine by me, but there's no rush.