[SPOILERS] naufragar and Rusten get nickel-and-dimed

[Rusten]

But I think you're underestimating how fast Lander grows when using all 3 seafood tiles. It's like 2 sizes in just 3 turns. That's why I'd think (without having calculated, mind you) that we can get both a forge and a settler there. But if you say there's definitely no time then put the overflow into settler. If there is in fact time then switch to forge this turn and put axe overflow after the 4-2 whip into forge. Axe can be military garrison until we finish the archer after the forge.

edit: Lander will have ~+5 food while working 2x plains hill mines on size 5. That's a lot of production which means that the forge pays back fairly quickly. We could keep it size 6 and whip every time it goes to 7 and run an engineer for 12 base hammers with the added population point. It could be a second shot at a GE later if the first one fails. I'd even venture a guess that we prefer engineers over plains hill mine there as we're philosophical and it's a very useful GP type at all stages of the game.

[naufragar]

This might have come out as a mess in written form, let me know if you're confused. But it needs to be done before MS ends the turn.

I'll admit I'm not sure I follow, but I'm going to blame that on my neighbor who is just blastingmusic. (It is not party time yet...) I'm stepping out and I'll take another crack at understanding when I'm back. I understand that your plan has us start but not finish an archer while working a plains hill. That I was able to follow and do. edit: Oh no. Ninja'd. Put a forge in. Can't focus. I trust you. If something's off, we can work out the details.


(Honestly, I'm so distracted I saved this as "Turn 79 Paint" instead of "Turn 79 Lander" because I edited it in MS Paint.)

(I was about to transcribe what I thought your plan was, but honestly, I'm having a really rough time focusing. Forge-->Axe-->Settler-->Forge-->Archer.)

[Rusten]

We can work out the details before tomorrow's turn. I switched to what I think will be best based on rule of thumb.

PH --> fish in lander [and I switched to axeman to prepare for the 2-pop whip -- no difference in practice]
fish --> New Viron's FP cottage in capital
FP cottage --> furs in New Viron (food is a waste while producing settlers and workers)

Unsure on whether we whip forge in capital next turn or delay another turn or two. One would assume we want to whip away the unhappiness, but the overflow will go into a settler so it pays off to have a higher number and we're whipping away tiles other cities can't cover for right now. Main culprit being the 4->2 settler whip in New Viron.

Remember: Turn off avoid growth next turn. Lander's doing +10 at the moment [16 --> 26]

edit: most likely we should chop the Lander forest and then 3-pop whip the forge 6-->3. By memory Lander will be unhappy on size 5 without the gems, but it grows quickly anyway. Either way, the way I've set it up this turn has not committed to anything in particular. The axe being produced is 2-pop whipped in both the forge and no forge plan.

Forge-->Axe-->Settler-->Forge-->Archer

No. What I'm envisioning is axe -->forge (whip 6-->3) --> complete archer --> settler. This should be possible to achieve in the 12 or so turns we have until machinery. If it's at the cost of less hammers pre-allocated into an axeman I'd say it's well worth it because this city can supply us with a lot of units the 15-20 turns afterwards, but it would not surprise me if we have time altogether. We can put hammers into the 2nd axe (that turns into a samurai) when we grow back after the whips.

[Commodore]

You're absolutely, 100% spot on when you point out that the map maker accidentally put our horses down south by Superdeath.

When the script put the horses four tiles away from your capital, I was definitely "yes, need to move them farther away". But then it looks like I didn't...

[naufragar]

When the script put the horses four tiles away from your capital, I was definitely "yes, need to move them farther away". But then it looks like I didn't...

No worries. I'm sure I'd find some way to give away horses just two tiles away from my capital.  

And give away the horses I have:


I'm not unknown to give away tiles in my sphere of influence by dawdling too long. Right, Rusten?  If I were two turns faster, I could have invalidated that plant. Magic Science founded two cities, one this turn and one when I rolled the turn. He's at ten. If we conquer all of Superdeath, we will tie him in city count assuming he doesn't plant more.  

Rusten, I'm going to say a thing you're not going to like. I think our current plans have us building too many settlers. We've got one coming out of New Viron that heads to gems and we plan to build two more. Unless we still plant for horses and have to compete with already established Creative culture (which we can. Horses would be our first ring and their second.) we have no spot for another city. We found for whales on the island with Lander. (If we go overseas, we'll need a garrison, since the rice island is big enough for barbs.) I think we shouldn't produce a settler out of the capital. Instead we can build a barracks, units, or in a few turns a library. The more military we build, the less we rely on winning 75% battles against Superdeath, and the smoother that conquest goes, the sooner we can get back in this.

Danger global lurkers. Micro alert.

Rusten, regarding your micro plans: You asked if the capital should whip this turn or not. I haven't ended turn so we can figure this out. If it's building a settler, it can whip this turn. 51/120 hammers. 6h production. Overflow after forge cuts that 6 down to 4. (Every turn we wait to whip, we get hit with the forge overflow bug for 25% of our hammers.) If we trip whip now, we overflow 3 hammers. I *think* this avoids the overflow reduction. Overflow 3h into settler, grow back on axe. At size 4, cap has +2f (corn, grass iron, grass hill) and 16h (center tile, iron, grass mine, plains mine *1.25). 2 whip gets us 62 hammers. So we need 100base-62whip-3overflow=35 hammers. 18foodhammers*2turns=36. I think we want to whip if we're getting a settler. That said, I don't think we want a settler.

I can understand the Lander plan. I very much don't want to chop Lander's forest. Yes, it significantly speeds up Lander's forge, but without that forest, presumptive whales city has nothing to do but work a plains hill mine for 5 turns until its barracks completes and then another 10 turns until borders pop. The forest would save 4 turns off that, making the city productive faster and getting us whales faster, which is the whole point of that city. (Obviously we don't have to go for whales. We can go for the other island and get rice & iron first ring, but that requires garrisons and a bit more logisitcs. Plus we need happy.)

I'll move New Viron's settler towards the gems next turn. It moves again. Then finally it founds. Superdeath reoffered peace, which I accepted, and he moved his axe back into fog to watch over the gems. I still marvel that we haven't seen a settler from him given his interest in the area. With Scylla's we beat him to 6 city, Alex vs. Sury. My point is: we should emotionally prepare to be beaten to gems by a turn or two.     <--emotional preparedness

Lurker Alert: Micro over. Now for Cloak and Dagger.

Haven't done much of this recently, so why not now? Demos:



Crop Yield:



Combined Rival Crop: 70average*4players=280f.
101mscc+3x=280 where x is average of other players.
3x=179
x~=59.66.....

We know rival lowest is 58.
2y+58=179
2y=121
y=60.5

The takeaway from all this? Gentle lurkers, we with 60 food are right in the middle of the pack and MSCC has almost double everyone else! Boak/GeneralKilCavalry are right there with us!    MSCC are gosh darn dominating.  I've made my reputation by picking fights with the biggest guys on the pitboss prison yard. Superdeath, every fiber of my being yearns to fight MSCC with samurai. However, 5 cities with samurai doesn't beat 10 cities with archers. Maybe I could've done it if we didn't scrap. Que sera, sera. Edit: For you math people, of which I am not, the Crop Yield graph shows Superdeath and Cairo around even, hence my inference that B/GKC are there with them.

[Rusten]

I agree with skipping one of the settlers. What about getting the settler in our capital still, but a LH in Lander to boost samurai production after the forge? It won't be too much food if it's working 2x plains hill while running engineer.

I'm not surprised about MS. Yes, he's playing well, but he was also given the best (6F) tiles. We had 0, and not even a single 5F one outside of the capital (which couldn't be shared either). Flood plains add to the overall area lushness but they don't help much for early game expansion. It's better to have a single grass pigs than cow+farm+farm. Less worker turns and more efficient whips. But we've avoided complaining much about this so no point starting now.

What does surprise me is how bad boak/GKC are playing. They got a free capital early and should be way ahead of us.

edit:
And I'm fine with keeping the Lander forest for the whales plant. It will speed up whale happiness. Even more fine with it if we get the settler in our capital and not lander.
Did you remember to turn off avoid growth?

[naufragar]

What about getting the settler in our capital still, but a LH in Lander to boost samurai production after the forge? It won't be too much food if it's working 2x plains hill while running engineer.

I love this plan. The alternative is two axes and I'm very worried about how many units we'll need to kill Superdeath, but the idea of Lander at size 5 making 15hpt with an engineer while still net positive for food (+3) is way too enticing.

Did you remember to turn off avoid growth?

I did, but I'm logging back on in a few minutes to trip whip the forge and I'll check then. (You're satisfied with my forge micro? It does have us work a plains hill mine for two turns over a fp cottage, but it's the fastest we can get the settler out.)

[Rusten]

(You're satisfied with my forge micro? It does have us work a plains hill mine for two turns over a fp cottage, but it's the fastest we can get the settler out.)

You're smoking something in that capital micro. Why are we losing hammers after whipping the forge when we currently have no multipliers? The hammers don't magically disappear, do they? You're confusing me.

But generally speaking the faster we get the settler the faster we get whale, so I'd aim for that.

[naufragar]

You're smoking something in that capital micro. Why are we losing hammers after whipping the forge when we currently have no multipliers? The hammers don't magically disappear, do they?

I'm 80% sure that once we whip the forge, the game thinks we've always had the 25% multiplier and so divides it back out of the overflow. If this sounds completely alien to you, I'll defer to your experience, but I'm 80% sure. Maybe 75%.

[Rusten]

It sounds familiar now that you mention it. Feel free to whip it this turn already, but don't bother putting the (minuscule) 3 overflow into a settler. Grow back to size 4 faster instead, surely?

Ah nevermind, we grow back to size 4 immediately anyway by memory. I'll just leave this one to your judgement. As long as you're not whipping away the iron whatever you choose can't be too bad.