[SPOILERS] PB20 Lurker Thread of Perfect Hindsight

[SevenSpirits]

About nerfing comunism, why juts make another good solution? Do you want me quit playing civ, you know I can't play without it...

This goes all the way back to PBEM23 and 24, both of which involved Communism being grabbed by liberalism around t100 quick speed. It's just far too good a tech, and it's the best beeline target in the game. Game after game has shown that by now.

If you want to boost other options relative to communism you have to buff mercantilism and free market, because corps come too late. And I think that's a really bad idea as mercantilism is already also a good beeline target, and if you make it competitive with state property it will be a cure worse than the disease.

What do you think about removing the distance maintenance removal from state property, and the great spy from communism?

[mackoti]

About nerfing comunism, why juts make another good solution? Do you want me quit playing civ, you know I can't play without it...

This goes all the way back to PBEM23 and 24, both of which involved Communism being grabbed by liberalism around t100 quick speed. It's just far too good a tech, and it's the best beeline target in the game. Game after game has shown that by now.

If you want to boost other options relative to communism you have to buff mercantilism and free market, because corps come too late. And I think that's a really bad idea as mercantilism is already also a good beeline target, and if you make it competitive with state property it will be a cure worse than the disease.

What do you think about removing the distance maintenance removal from state property, and the great spy from communism?

I think you'll make it an irelevant tech as is dead end tech already and the beline is worth if you dont build so many cotages and keep place for workshop, doing this change returning to spam cotages everywere will be a must to be relevant.And i think is not the case anyone to get comunism with liberalism.And if you beline to it you have to pay the price of SM so some wonders are realy not worth for you.
About wonders i think colosus should be made a permanent wonder so people realy consider building it and this way to have a good alternative path to curency for example.

[SevenSpirits]

I think workshops are viable even without state property. As you can see I built mostly workshops. And cottages also require dead-end techs to be at their best.

How much food, hammers, and gold was state property giving you (at the end, or when you first got it if you remember)?

[mackoti]

I think workshops are viable even without state property. As you can see I built mostly workshops. And cottages also require dead-end techs to be at their best.

How much food, hammers, and gold was state property giving you (at the end, or when you first got it if you remember)?

At beggining near 30-40 as i had few workshops and i was working mainly coast for comerce.In the end near 110 maybe.I think you were getting 6 food from corps so that would be 18 cities with corp.gold was like 100 , and production maybe 50? even less i think as i didnt had 500 base production.still god a cicic which gave 40 food, 100 gold and 50 prod.But i was investing everithing towards this and preparing for it, builded wealth to get it faster.I seen many games were people got Sp and said well not that strong, they got it later and had like 15 workshops.I hate cotage spamming but once i will do a beline towards democracy and going that emancipation and i will prove is same stron if not stronger then playing with SP.The diference is there you need more green land, here you can work with brown as well.

[Haram]

Seven, with Minning Corp you could compete with Mackoti's production. If I'm not wrong, you could be having 9h per city. Its 540h/t across empire, not counting multipliers. If you had factories and electricity, it would be over 1.000 additional hammers per turn.

Also note, we played on a huge map size. On smaller maps, corp would be giving even more.


Edit: costs doesnt metter, if you place a corp in Wall Street city and have CHs in place.

[Qgqqqqq]

Seven, with Minning Corp you could compete with Mackoti's production. If I'm not wrong, you could be having 9h per city. Its 540h/t across empire, not counting multipliers. If you had factories and electricity, it would be over 1.000 additional hammers per turn.

Also note, we played on a huge map size. On smaller maps, corp would be giving even more.


Edit: costs doesnt metter, if you place a corp in Wall Street city and have CHs in place.

The counter to this, of course, is that corps require significantly more costs to establish and spread, whilst SP comes earlier and gives everything up front (aside from worker turns if you need to convert).

[Haram]

Sure, you're right. But what I couldn't understand is why nobody has taken Minning Corp in this game. Of course, it is a cost to spread, but it's not THAT big and once you do it, it's just free hammers, not related to any tiles.

Edit: provided you spared an Engineer.

[The Black Sword]

I've tried to log into both civs but the game crashed each time. It seemed to throw up an error message but I didn't have enough time to read it.

GG anyway guys.

[SevenSpirits]

For me, state property would currently be worth:
235g distance maintenance
35g reduced civic cost
106h hammers (roughly)
160f (roughly... and this is without an empire optimized for SP. easily 180 if I adopt SP and spend a few worker turns appropriately.)

Inflation is about 50% currently, so the 270g reduced costs is really 400g.

By comparison, mercantilism is netting me roughly 3c per city in 60 cities, or about 180c or about 165g. So the current net benefit of State Property over the other options (free market is similar) per turn is 235g, 106h, and maybe 180f.

Communism has an up-front cost of roughly 4635g. (I am calculating in gold not beakers because other stats are in gold.) I think the value of that price in gold per turn is between 100 and 150. So the cost is equivalent to 125gpt, and the benefit is equivalent to 235gpt, 106hpt, and 180fpt. (Shall we roughly call 2g = 1h = 1f in the current era? That makes 807gpt.) That is an insane discrepancy. Just to be clear here, if the benefit were only 130gpt, I am saying it would be worth teching communism and adopting state property. Instead , the benefit is arguably over 6 times that.

But what about corps? The best corp for me right now is mining, inc, which is worth 9h -2g in a typical city. (That -2g is because, with inflation, the added costs outweigh the wall street corp headquarters payout, with the number of resources I have.) Let's just call that 16gpt, and let's call the 100h 50g price for a corp spread 250g. Furthermore let's say that the great engineer I have to spend has an opportunity cost of about 3000g, because I can get 2800g worth of tech with a scientist and I'd rather have an engineer. If I manage to spread the corp to 30 cities in a reasonable period of time (I currently have cereal mills in just 23 despite prioritizing it), I am paying 3000g + 30 * 250g = 10500g, and I am getting 30 * 16gpt = 480gpt benefit. That 10500g is worth, according to the same scale as I used above for state property, between 233gpt and 350gpt. So here we are paying, let's say, 290gpt and getting 480gpt. That is quite good, sure. But the alternative of state property involves instead paying 125gpt for 807gpt. It is both cheaper (by over half) and worth a lot more (almost double).

Add this to the fact that SP is available long before corps, and the comparison is ludicrously lopsided.

[SevenSpirits]

Sure, you're right. But what I couldn't understand is why nobody has taken Minning Corp in this game. Of course, it is a cost to spread, but it's not THAT big and once you do it, it's just free hammers, not related to any tiles.

Edit: provided you spared an Engineer.

Well, I've gotten one engineer during the game, and I used it while I was way, way behind to get Taj Mahal. At that point it didn't even look like I would survive to Mining Inc let alone be the first person to reach Railroad and own an engineer.