The Kuriotates: A Tale of Centaurs, Hubris, and Unbridled Enthusiasm

[HidingKneel]

Hmm... EitB changelog says that mistforms now use the animal AI. If that's right, I guess we don't have to worry. Even if we spawned a bunch of them, they'll just stay in our culture without moving, like that spider from earlier.

[HidingKneel]

Played turn 79. The news is all bad.

First, it looks like we're dealing with at least one mistform, and it isn't just sitting around:



Lost a bunch of workers between turns, plus a mine that I was building for Commodore. Oh well. I moved the remaining workers (I think we have 7 left) away from the front lines. Alan Wake is fortified on a hill next to the mine that got pillaged. Hopefully the mistform will go for him next. It's a melee unit, so he'll get something like +160% against it, which ought to be safe enough.

(Question: what do we need to see through mistform invisiblity? Will a scout do?)

Bob still hasn't budged:



Okay, so I guess that means he's waiting for Mardero? Who will probably get out on turn 81, the same turn we get Basium. Which might make Bob cautious. Anyways, I started feeling silly about all the gold we're accumulating right now, which looks like it'll be more than we need. Plus, Basium gives us some kind of huge research penalty, right? So I decided to turn science on again this turn. Bronze working is now 15 beakers away.

In other news: Ilios founded fellowship of leaves. He also started a golden age, revolted into conquest and military state, and joined the overcouncil.
I think it's extremely likely that he'll build the bone palace for another golden age on top of that. He's starting to look scary. (But is it us or Bob who should be scared?)

One bright spot: even in Ilios's golden age, we still have the best GNP when running 100% science:



So, next turn there are some decisions to be made. Swap to conquest or stay in foreign trade? (I'm thinking stay; conquest won't add much in Kwythellar, which is the only city that can produce Kilmorph units now anyway). Should Kwythellar build two thanes (which can be upgraded to 2 paladins for a cost of 278gp), or a single stonewarden (which can be upgraded to one paladin for a cost of 59gp)?
Avelorn will also have its build queue free. I'm thinking temple of Kilmorph, so it can join in the stonewarden-cranking fun.

Mercurian gate: 316/402.

[Kyan]

I think a scout should work. They can see spiders and mistforms were changed to share their invis code I believe.

[Mardoc]

(Question: what do we need to see through mistform invisiblity? Will a scout do?)

No, mistforms have real invisibility. We need either a floating eye, a Hawk, or an Empyrean priest. OTOH, assuming your bait works, next turn he'll just be XP.

Bob still hasn't budged:

Okay, so I guess that means he's waiting for Mardero? Who will probably get out on turn 81, the same turn we get Basium. Which might make Bob cautious.

Or, ahem, perhaps he's waiting for Beast #4 .

Anyways, I started feeling silly about all the gold we're accumulating right now, which looks like it'll be more than we need. Plus, Basium gives us some kind of huge research penalty, right? So I decided to turn science on again this turn. Bronze working is now 15 beakers away.

Ooh, good point, I'd forgotten about the teammate research penalty. It's about a 30% penalty, IIRC. We can partially go around it by having Basium running gold civics, gifting his gold to enable Kurio 100% tech with our libraries/academies.

On a different topic, the gold requirement to upgrade 4 Thanes to Paladins via Stonewarden is 144*4 = 576 gold. Of course, if we have time, it's possible we can build Paladins rather than upgrading them. So on balance I agree it's good to have research back on, for now; we've enough gold on hand to be able to finish that sum between when Bob starts moving and when he arrives.

[HidingKneel]

Ooh, good point, I'd forgotten about the teammate research penalty. It's about a 30% penalty, IIRC. We can partially go around it by having Basium running gold civics, gifting his gold to enable Kurio 100% tech with our libraries/academies.

Speaking of which, our great person is due out soon. Hopefully it'll be a merchant and we can bulb currency. The most likely possibility, though, is a prophet. If we get a prophet, I'm thinking we save it for a few turns to build the Code of Junil. We've already got spirit and sun mana from the Kuriotate palace. Convert our mana node to mind, and we're in a position to build two towers of divination. (We can do this without the prophet too: just need to have Basium claim the mana nodes in Selrahc or Thoth's territories.)

If it's a sage... well, I say we just sit on it until we get another great person to fire off our second golden age.

On a different topic, the gold requirement to upgrade 4 Thanes to Paladins via Stonewarden is 144*4 = 576 gold. Of course, if we have time, it's possible we can build Paladins rather than upgrading them. So on balance I agree it's good to have research back on, for now; we've enough gold on hand to be able to finish that sum between when Bob starts moving and when he arrives.

We've already got one stonewarden. So at worst we're talking 144*3 + 55 = 487 gold. But Ilios is making me nervous, and I'm really wanting to get back to teching.

[Mardoc]

I think a scout should work. They can see spiders and mistforms were changed to share their invis code I believe.

or, perhaps I'm wrong, and Kyan's answer is correct. Although the changelog only says the AI was changed, not the unit itself.

So, next turn there are some decisions to be made. Swap to conquest or stay in foreign trade? (I'm thinking stay; conquest won't add much in Kwythellar, which is the only city that can produce Kilmorph units now anyway).

CII Paladin attacking a Beast has about 96% odds. CI Paladin attacking a Beast has about 90% odds. No-promo Paladin attacking a Beast has about 75% odds. (all are much worse if we let Bob do the attacking and get that 25% bonus). All the above assume no terrain defense, full health Beast, and Shield of Faith on the Paladin.

So...on balance, I think our odds are good enough without starting the units at 5XP. And therefore, stick with FT for now. Reevaluate once Bob starts moving. But you're right, we can't afford a singleminded focus on Bob only, we've got to keep building the economy if we don't want to simply die to Clowns or Monks.

Also - looking at those numbers suggests that fairly soon we'll be able to counter attack Bob. If we have odds without Basium's worldspell, then the WS ought to give us good odds even against fortified Hyborem. Especially once the Paladins pick up some more promotions and we bring along some angelic buddies.

Should Kwythellar build two thanes (which can be upgraded to 2 paladins for a cost of 278gp), or a single stonewarden (which can be upgraded to one paladin for a cost of 59gp)?

I think it depends on Bob. If we have time, build stonewardens rather than thanes. If he's moving next turn, we want to burn the cash for the speed. In either case, we definitely want our Pally's to be Priests first, for the chance at starting with more XP, and for free Mobility.

Avelorn will also have its build queue free. I'm thinking temple of Kilmorph, so it can join in the stonewarden-cranking fun.

Agreed. The gold and happiness is a handy bonus .

Agreed with your thoughts on Great People, too.

In any event, our exact war plans need to vary based on the foe, so reevaluate once Bob starts moving, and again once we figure out his target.

[HidingKneel]

Had a wisdom tooth extracted today. In this time of crisis, is it entirely wise that the Kuriotates should follow a leader who's all doped up on painkillers? You decide!

So, turn 80. First of all, some mistforms attacked our fortified centaurs, with the expected result:



Hopefully that's all of them. No way to be sure right now, though. If another one happens to snipe one of our SoKs, it could delay Basium for a turn. But I think that's unlikely.

Also of note: Ilios has adopted FoL. Also, if I understand correctly, we won the "vote" to head the overcouncil. Has the overcouncil resolutions changed much in EitB? I actually can't remember much about how they work in base FFH.

So, it seems that Mardoc was right and HidingKneel cannot do math. The AC went up another two points this turn, because Bob produced his fourth beast:



So maybe now he'll start towards us? Anyways, even if he starts moving on turn 80, we ought to have plenty of time to get ready for him. I decided to go the cheap/efficient route, prebuilding our paladins as stonewardens rather than thanes. We'll have a second stonewarden in Kwythellar at the end of turn 81. Avelorn finished a temple of Kilmorph at the end of this turn. And Naggarond continues building the gate.

Mercurian gate: 337/402, due to be completed next turn.

Meanwhile, I continued running 100% science. Bronze working came in this turn with a ton of overflow, which we can use to finish a number of other techs next turn if we like. For example: sanitation. Alternatively, with science at 100% for the next two turns, we can finish smelting (unless the Basium penalty hits us hard). That'll still give us one turn to run 100% gold, to be able to afford lots of stonewarden -> paladin upgrades.

Anyways, now that Basium is nearly here, some technical questions: how does being on a permanent team work, anyhow? Can we improve tiles in Mercurian territory? (That'd be great, since we've got a work crew already.) Can we see what the Mercurians see and vice versa?

Most importantly: do you want to announce your arrival in the banter thread, Commodore, or should I ?

[Mardoc]

Convert our mana node to mind, and we're in a position to build two towers of divination. (We can do this without the prophet too: just need to have Basium claim the mana nodes in Selrahc or Thoth's territories.)

This isn't the best use, but one fun possibility would be going up to Divine Essense and building ourselves a Dragon!

Or, y'know, we could open Theology for High Priests for collateral damage, Righteousness for Chalid and Sphener, Rage for Berserkers/Seraphs. We probably don't want to the use the Towers on stuff like Warhorses/Precision/Mithril, those are similar cost but spread over 4-5 techs, we'd be better off hand-researching those. Given the way our tech rate is growing and likely to continue to grow, they're reasonable goals to hand research .

Has the overcouncil resolutions changed much in EitB? I actually can't remember much about how they work in base FFH.

I don't think they've been changed at all; the buff to the civic is the +science/maintenance/drafting
According the the manual (which I *know* is out of date here, given some of the options listed):
The Overcouncil can vote on the following resolutions:
· Head Councilor- The head councilor selects all other resolutions
· Force War- Force war on a non-member
· Assign City- Return control of a city to a member
· Single Currency- +1 Trade Route in all cities
· Open Markets- Trade Routes with all Foreign cities
· Global Civic Public Healers- All members must adopt the Public Healers civic
· Global Civic Liberty- All members must adopt the Liberty civic
· Defensive Pact with all members- All members enter into a defensive pact
· Outlaw Death mana- No members can use Death mana
· Outlaw Entropy mana- No members can use Entropy mana
· Outlaw Shadow mana- No members can use Shadow mana

I'd tend to think that Force War, or outlawing mana we don't intend to use ever would be the best things. Or maybe the defensive pact would work.

Or, since people aren't AI's, maybe stick with the obvious ones like Single Currency . Since making Ilios declare on everyone would be funny, but probably wouldn't really accomplish a whole lot.

So, it seems that Mardoc was right and HidingKneel cannot do math. The AC went up another two points this turn, because Bob produced his fourth beast:

Never said anything about your math skills, just your assumptions. In any event, I'm pleased to be right more for the extra turn it gives us than anything else.

So maybe now he'll start towards us? Anyways, even if he starts moving on turn 80, we ought to have plenty of time to get ready for him. I decided to go the cheap/efficient route, prebuilding our paladins as stonewardens rather than thanes. We'll have a second stonewarden in Kwythellar at the end of turn 81. Avelorn finished a temple of Kilmorph at the end of this turn. And Naggarond continues building the gate.

I'd give it 50/50 odds. If I were in his shoes, I'd be moving next turn. But maybe he thinks we have more than we do, and hence will wait for a bigger stack.

Meanwhile, I continued running 100% science. Bronze working came in this turn with a ton of overflow, which we can use to finish a number of other techs next turn if we like. For example: sanitation. Alternatively, with science at 100% for the next two turns, we can finish smelting (unless the Basium penalty hits us hard). That'll still give us one turn to run 100% gold, to be able to afford lots of stonewarden -> paladin upgrades.

I like smelting. Forges + Jewelers in all our main cities will possibly put us back on top of the demos. Sanitation is also good, but I know we'll want Construction sooner or later, so we should go to Sanitation via Construction.

Or, actually...Cartography could be a good thing to have on hand for Basium. I expect we'll want to turn over all conquered cities and a bunch of built ones on top; that could get expensive fast.

Anyways, now that Basium is nearly here, some technical questions: how does being on a permanent team work, anyhow? Can we improve tiles in Mercurian territory? (That'd be great, since we've got a work crew already.) Can we see what the Mercurians see and vice versa?

All research goes into the same bucket; you can research different things, but you'd never want to. Vision is shared, trade routes are automatic (but only count as +1, same as domestic). Roads work for both. I'm 90% sure that workers can work in foreign lands, but that settlers cannot settle in them. Wonders that are 'each city' benefit the whole team usually.

Can even open up cities of your ally to look, but you can't change builds for them.

Of course, we'll want Currency soon, so that Commodore can run Consumption, build Money Changers, and fund Kurio research. Much better to pump all that gold through our Library/Academies which we have everywhere. That honestly ought to speed up our teching more than the teammate penalty slows it, once Basium has enough cities built and grown. And of course, we want Kurios to build the settlers for that, since we're Expansive and he's not.

[Mardoc]

This isn't the best use, but one fun possibility would be going up to Divine Essense and building ourselves a Dragon!

Actually, on further thought, this isn't quite as suboptimal as I first thought. We could go to Divine Essence via Theology, for our High Priests anyway, and it also enables Immortals, Valkyries, and the Blood of the Phoenix ritual, in addition to Eurabatres.

[Commodore]

I'll announce, certainly. Smelting is great, no doubt, but Construction -> Sanitation might be best, particularly given how much growing I'll need to do. Currency is obviously going to be needed once Killswitch has grown into something that can (with God King) make a dent as a funder. If I'm going to be running 100% gold 100% of the time, GK will be worthwhile longer than usual, although on a toroid like this Cartography will be needed eventually.

One interesting FFH wrinkle is that I'm going to be a funder then I'll be making markets/money-changers pretty much exclusively, so I'll actually probably then select some tech we dislike to sink those negative beakers into.