Do nothing ? same can be said about Mattimeo saying that he I am contradictory without stating why. pindicator basically saying what everyone says then dissapers. Azza a few posts every so often. MJW throwing a bunch of random words to get me angry and devolve the conversation into us fighting.
Quote:So yeah, there are several issues with that. Thats also why I don't like the attitude of Selrahc. I am certain he should be able to see those issues himself, so him acting like Rowains stance is totally not understandable for a villager is hard to believe.
Rowain is castigating something that I would have done if I had the fool card.
He is doing it based on rationale that I think is unsound, or at the least particularly convoluted.
He is doing it in a way that I think belies an ulterior motive that would fit with my understanding of how he plays wolf. To wit, he is pushing his theory *hard*.
Frankly, I don't care if you agree with his rationale Serdoa. I don't. What I see is a very twisty argument from him that has moved from one potential way that this might in some way be a good wolf ploy, to a different one, to an admission that he doesn't even care if he is lynching a villager.
Novice did something that I agree with as the action that any villager with the fool card should have taken. Rowain is using that as his sole reason to get Novice lynched. That is beyond the pale, and I'm never going to agree with it. It's actively dangerous to the village to lynch based on his criteria. I'm reaching a bit in my conclusion that he has done this because he is a wolf, as opposed to just misguided, but I think it makes sense with what I know of Rowain.
Rowain Wrote:You just used this excuse the very last game when you tried to distance yourself from a lynch as wolf.
Rowain, I've also used that same expression as a villager I'm fairly sure. It's an idosyncracy of my speech. I really am not attempting to distance myself from your lynch.
How is this solid debunking of his claims? "Novice did something that I agree with as the action that any villager with the fool card should have taken. Rowain is using that as his sole reason to get Novice lynched." Several people disagree and think that this play is a scum play and cant be connected to a miller play due to how different the roles are + the miller isnt limited in an item that can be passed about. Twisty argument ? Just like Serdoa, and I said . You getting lynched is the least harmfull lynch right now.
(January 5th, 2013, 11:36)novice Wrote: In these cases he's not rephrasing what someone said, he's using phrases to describe his impression of reality. Which we all do, and have to do, as language is imperfect. Unless you want to state all your arguments using formal logic.
Uh, no? He is lieing. When you see two houses near the street you are driving on and later tell someone that you visited a big city, than that is lieing. It might be your impression of reality, but it is still a lie. And if I say someone hammered a point when he did only answer questions that he was asked than that might be my impression of reality but it still is a lie. That might be because I misread stuff or because I do it on purpose.
Quote:Rowain has been given many reasons why my play is unlikely to be a scum ploy. Every time he refutes these reasons with increasingly unlikely meta theories. To me that's hammering. Selrahc's description of Rowain's item theories is also apt. I don't fond Selrahc's case scummy or misrepresenting, it fits with how I could have chosen to describe Rowain's game, and I'm town.
Please show me that. I really would like to see all those meta theories that Rowain made up. I haven't found them yet. Really, I did not. I see him answering - especially after you asked how the item seer works in his theory. But how is that hammering his point? I mean, should he have been quiet instead? Or is it hammering his theory because he refuses to give you a free pass? Because in that case, why are you guys not going after me as well? I did the same thing - I think I came even up with the meta theory how the item seer fits before Rowain was asked. So I am at least as guilty as he is.
Wow, I did not realize how easy it is just to lurk. To break out from that somewhat, here is a loose collection of my thoughts so far:
I do not have a strong read on Tasunke or Ryan either way. I think Tasunke's "slip" was just a joke and the rest of his play seems fine to me. Ryan feels a little more scummy, because if he supposedly has WW experience, he'd be less affected by other's "attacks" on him. However, perhaps I am misunderstanding his posts about his playing experience, or perhaps it was played differently in his experiences, with less arguing.
I think novice is a likely villager. I don't find Rowain's arguement that he could be scum impossible, but I do think the simpler explanation, that novice just miller-claimed as a villager, is more likely.
That being said, I think Rowain's arguement is a lot more understandable than some other players here (Selrahc, uberfish, others?) seem to think. Definitely not enough for me to think that Rowain is scum.
I am unsure what to think about the Serdoa-Selrahc fight. My inclination is to side with Serdoa here, as I think his argument has more merit than Selrahc's argument against Rowain.
I'm not a particular fan of how Q has played, nor Azza, for that matter, but not enough to give them even a slight scum lean.
I seem to have great trouble reading Zak, so I will abstain on him for now.
Lewwyn and Bigger both seem slightly villagers to me (gut instinct-not to be trusted past day 1).
Since I have to vote, Bigger for Mayor and Selrahc for lynch.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(January 5th, 2013, 11:49)uberfish Wrote: Well yes, I can prove my numbers.
If village has the card they will claim it, the card passing happens at the end of the day after the seer has scanned so there's no chance of getting a false guilty result as the seer won't scan that person.
But that only applies if village has the card no? If scum has it, you don't even know you really has it, so you can't be certain. As we don't know novices alignment, that means we don't have 100% reliability. Am I missing something?
Quote:As for innocents there's probably 4/17 scum, so if a scum has the card there's 14 people who scan as innocent only one of which would give a false result, that's over 90% reliability
But we don't know which of them scans wrong. So basically we have 0% reliabilty, despite having 90% correct results because we can't differeniate between the right and the wrong results.
Quote:and the other PRs might not scan the right people, but if the seer can only hit 3 scum instead of 4 but another PR can catch one as a result so overall we don't lose anything. Oh, if village has the thief he could catch someone out lying about the card, too.
But he can't hit 3 scum. As long as we don't know about the card, none of the scan results is certainly correct. I understand now how you got your numbers, but they actually don't have any meaning imo. You calculation expects that we could differeniate between right and wrong results, what we can't. Yes, most of the time, the result the seer gets is actually the right result. But as we do not know when it is not, every single result could be wrong - making all the seer scans unreliable because there is always a possibility of that result not being correct.
Quote:As for wording. If i'm scum I reread my posts and factcheck looking for anything that I might be attacked on. If I'm village I don't because I have nothing to hide. as for what I consider a slip I prefer to look at overall patterns rather than wording. look at Rowain's posts in the tracker, until the move to Selrahc his posts are either trying to justifying the policy lynch on novice by giving various scenarios where novice could be scum, or defence. I don't think Selrahc was seriously misrepresenting Rowain in the quotes Serdoa made in his last post (Yeah I thought Selrahc was voting for rowain and it seems he wansn't actually mentioned in rowain's post, my mistake there.)
Ok, thanks for the clarification.
Quote:So look, this day appears to be devolving into rowain + serdoa VS novice + selrahc + myself. Regardless of alignments everyone seems to argue their policy stances with conviction. My main points against rowain is that he never went beyond the policy thing when arguing for novice's lynch, there's no comment at all on what from novice's posting is scummy. I find it hard to believe that Rowain would have no leads at all up until Serdoa voted Selrahc when he's questioned or commented on every single person who voted him to this point.
uberfish, I'd just like to add that I don't actually believe in Rowain being village. I just don't believe him scum either right now. I can see his actions on both sides. Same goes for novice. Same goes for you. I do have a scum-lean on Selrahc for the points I posted.
Quote:BTW I'm also willing to lynch Bigger for the string of do-nothing posts where he talks to Ryan.
I'd lynch Bigger just because I know he would be extremely annoyed about it.
(January 5th, 2013, 11:54)Serdoa Wrote: Ok, so your statement is that my overanalyzing applies to villagers and scum equally. Again, what is your point? That my arguments against Selrahc are therefore invalid? If so, why don't you attack my arguments against him, instead of my way to play?
Err... Yes. They're invalid, because they're null tells. Selrahc summarizes the case on Rowain nicely, and adds some rhetoric.
Ok, so your point is that my points are invalid because you don't agree with them. But you are not actually going to show prove that they are invalid. Again, please show me the posts where he was hammering his posts, where he came up with several different meta-argumentations how items would fit, moving items in and out of scum-hands. If you can't than it seems I do have a point, no?
Uhh, huge crosspost. I feel less like Ryan is a scum (null tell overall) and slightly more like uberfish is (seems to be cherry-picking Rowain's words, IMO)
Slight scum lean with Pindicator, slight village lean with MJW, no read on Mattimeo. All gut feelings.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(January 5th, 2013, 12:13)Merovech Wrote: Wow, I did not realize how easy it is just to lurk. To break out from that somewhat, here is a loose collection of my thoughts so far:
I do not have a strong read on Tasunke or Ryan either way. I think Tasunke's "slip" was just a joke and the rest of his play seems fine to me. Ryan feels a little more scummy, because if he supposedly has WW experience, he'd be less affected by other's "attacks" on him. However, perhaps I am misunderstanding his posts about his playing experience, or perhaps it was played differently in his experiences, with less arguing.
I think novice is a likely villager. I don't find Rowain's arguement that he could be scum impossible, but I do think the simpler explanation, that novice just miller-claimed as a villager, is more likely.
That being said, I think Rowain's arguement is a lot more understandable than some other players here (Selrahc, uberfish, others?) seem to think. Definitely not enough for me to think that Rowain is scum.
I am unsure what to think about the Serdoa-Selrahc fight. My inclination is to side with Serdoa here, as I think his argument has more merit than Selrahc's argument against Rowain.
I'm not a particular fan of how Q has played, nor Azza, for that matter, but not enough to give them even a slight scum lean.
I seem to have great trouble reading Zak, so I will abstain on him for now.
Lewwyn and Bigger both seem slightly villagers to me (gut instinct-not to be trusted past day 1).
Since I have to vote, Bigger for Mayor and Selrahc for lynch.
How did you get that I have WW experience when all of this was me saying I am new to this ? are you even reading?
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
![[Image: CmQTvVS.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/CmQTvVS.jpg)
