WW27 Game Thread: Once there were 12

[MJW (ya that one)]

Mattimeo, if you are busy you need to say WHY. The village just cannot accept a blanket excuse. That's what really took Selrahc in ww3, the villages only wolf kill.

Qgqqqqq, and others, after Zak the next person who are likely to be wolfs are the novice attackers. The night kill choice hints that one of the wolfs is probably novice or zak; wanting to shut up the biggest talker after them. It would be a bit silly if both Zak and novice were both wolfs.* And I don't see any problems in novices post. Jowy is the only vigorous attacker of novice and his murky style is not enough to dissway me. However, this logic is dependent on Zak being a wolf so I would rather kill him if possible.

Also, I can answer why people are ignoring me, Qgqqqq. They aren't, see Gaz's post. However, you only get one vote at a time and people like Mattimeo is an easier option for obvious reasons...

*novice has a 2/9 chance if zak is a wolf

[zakalwe]

Mattimeo's posts, excepting #204, which was misformatted and appeared blank.

I'd interpreted 'flavour' to be the fluff surrounding the general situation / roles. Vanilla town is still vanilla town, just might have a fancy name like 'Farmer' or 'Employee', with story to link that in.

And yeah, even number of people generally means you want either a no-kill day/night, or a double kill day/night. And (generally) the easiest of them to force is a no-kill day.
However, lack of a legal no lynch vote. Why is this a common thing with games here?

@Mattimeo

Because it can lead to situation in which both parties would rather not lynch/kill anyone. 3-1 endgame for example. Town doesn't want to lynch (if wrong they will lose), but scum doesn't want to kill either (makes it easier for town to choose the correct player).

hm, point. Though in the vast majority of situations I'd think the scum would bring it to LyLo after a no-lynch at MyLo. Not killing gives almost as much information as killing someone, at that point.

But since Q's explained his classical_hero pressure, I'll try Mattimeo. The short meta post is in character, but that semi-rhetorical question at the end feels a bit oh so casual.

...and how exactly does casual == scum, again? Or even, how are you defining 'casual' here? I certainly wouldn't have pulled that question out as a demonstration of a casual attitude to this game...

MJW is just harping on too much about zak's initial suggestion, which is honestly not a terrible idea in a mountainous even-numbered game. Not that this is likely to be mountainous, but no-lynching is also not a legal option. I just don't see how spending the entire day talking about only that and policy lynching a new player is remotely helpful.

(Aside: I don't understand what you mean by mountainous there Mattimeo.)

My bad, turns out you need to google it with 'mafia' rather than 'werewolf' to get a clear explanation. I probably should have checked with both before assuming that people would be capable of easily ascertaining meaning.

You're right that I wasn't very clear in my attack on you. WHen I said oh so casual, I mean a studied casualness. A 'let's throw out a conversational tidbit to end the conversation and perhaps divert it a bit'. It just didn't read as natural to me. I know that will be frustrating to read for you if you're town, but that's the vibe I got and I still got it.

I'll try and explain a bit better. Werewolf is obviously a game where we have to ask each other questions, but there are different kinds of questions you can ask. Direct questions aimed at getting information from a specific person are good, like "CH, why do you think Azza is shady?"

But questions are also a way for scum to fill space and seem to contribute without having to put themselves out there with reads. So leading questions, or rhetorical questions, or questions not really aimed at anybody in particular ping my scumdar. Your "why is this a common thing here?" is just like that. It's not aimed at anybody, it's not really relevant, it's a way of involving yourself without involving yourself.

Ah, I see the problem here. You assumed it was a genuine question, rather than an accusation against a practice I disagree with.

Mattimeo, at least be honest that you're voting MJW to save yourself.

...

No, pretty sure I'm voting him because I can't get away with not voting anyone (my preferred course of action on D1, where there's literally no information to go on what-so-ever), and because continually bringing up retarded points is a better reason to lynch someone than having 1 (classical_hero) or 3 (Azarius) posts in their first game.

Well, we're good at this whole 'welcoming the new people' thing, aren't we...

what are your thoughts, mattimeo?

There was a very nice over-extended spam-fest about something not even relevant to this game. Well over what was necessary to dismiss it as irrelevant. MJW gets some slack for it being his usual modus operandi to do exactly that (waffle on about useless shit the entire time), and no-one else was really involved (other than defending against the whiffle, or attacking based on the fact of whiffle, which doesn't actually care about the content, just he existence).
A quality pile formed on the new person because he's new and wasn't talking much. Then stuck around, because Lynch All Lurkers, especially new ones we're attempting to encourage to play here again.
Serdoa did his usual "post paragraphs it's actually impossible to disagree with without being of infirm mental capacities". And was killed for it. What a surprise.

Interestingly, Azza's posts effectively consisted of nothing that wasn't meta advice, or attacking lurkers for lurking, before turning violently on me as a wagon formed, eclipsing the MJW train. Around the same time as Gazglum, actually. So I see your case, novice, but (to me) Gaz's reasoning looks like actual attempts at reasoning, while Azza just looks to be hooking a ride on a convenient wagon.
Only thing I can see in his favour is the over-the-top reaction to the lynch, but that's pretty easy to fake, or could just as easily be real emotion from scum - I know I always feel the need to speak up when the town's being bone-headedly stupid, even when it's actually helpful for my victory conditions to let such actions continue.

...and apparently I fail at quoting

intended post:

Well, everything is finally working...

I think we have to kill Mattimeo today if he does'nt begin to post crap

Well, I was going to post something useful, but I guess I'll have to restrict myself to 'crap' now

The people who are don't like are the pack of lurkers (including Mattimeo) and Zak.

And I finally get a mention as part of the lurker pack? I thought you'd forgotten about me all of the last day, talking about policy lynching people who'd posted more than I had for lurking...

Well losing 2 key power roles this early sucks pretty badly, interseting they went for Serdoa.

Interesting? What are the other targets? novice, I suppose. zak would be similarly high priority, but I'd also think he'd actually be easier to lynch than Serdoa given this D1. The rest of us? Maybe Gazglum would also be worth a kill in a vacuum. Or MJW if you think removing the annoyance is worth also removing the distraction. The rest of us you need a reason, and you don't generally have one N1.

I’ve said a lot of times that I don’t think scum are the ones talking wild theories or super lurking on Day 1, they’re more likely to play like Mattimeo, Serdoa or Novice were – chiming in without rocking the boat. You may disagree with that, but I have form arguing that in previous games.

quoted in the same post:

That's pretty much one of the worst posts I've read so far in this game (together with Jkaens). Gazglum completely ignores what several people have listed as reason to vote for MJW, which is exactly that his behaviour in this game is NOT similar to his normal behaviour. Now I don't say he has to agree with that assessment. But not arguing that point, not even mentioning it, is scummy. It might very well be that MJW is a villager, but Gazglums defense here reads more like a wolf finding an easy point to make, hoping to earn village brownie points.

Direct attacks like that aren't 'rocking the boat' now?

For someone unlikely to be on at the deadline, it seemed like a clear self-defense vote disguised as scum hunting.

...there was an attempt to make it look anything like scum-hunting?
Certainly wasn't any attempt to pretend I was scum hunting D1. More putting my vote where it would do the least harm, given a need to actually put it somewhere. I seem to recall already spelling that out in justification, too.

Q, I feel your attack on MJW is because he's being anti-town rather than scummy. If this is an incorrect assumption, could you please explain how his play indicates he's scum rather than just crazy old MJW?

In the absence of an any actual scum-tells, why not default to anti-town tells? Even if someone generally gives off such tells, I'd still say killing them is better than killing someone who is likely to contribute usefully in the future.

it looks like the same sort of anti-town = scum fallacy that others (notably Q) are using.

Anti-town != scum.

However, anti-town == worth voting for, given lack of better scum candidates.

I think you answered your own question by quoting me I've stated that I found Matt's and CH's cases very similar, with of course the difference being that one is a veteran and the other is a newbie. Should a player always vote for lesser of the two evils rather than someone they suspect themselves? I don't know if there is a right or a wrong answer to that question.

Mattimeo:
Crap really means stuff.

Wait, really? I... I had no idea...

Hmm, I was hoping to save red for if a scum ever dies, but I can find a better blue, like the one we used for mayor votes.

Strange post by the mod at #167 say "if a sucm ever dies". I don't think anyone is bound to be lynched so this post only proves that a wolf was not caught by a watcher or something like that.

The mod would say something like "when a wolf dies" or "the color for wolfs" if he knew a wolf was doomed. For example a watcher catching a wolf killing Serdoa would do it. Even if the wolf somehow escapes the first day he's screwed when the watcher's role flips. He would not say "if a wolf EVER dies".

If a wolf got busted then I would eat my hat if the mod used "EVER". That makes no sense if he knows a wolf is going down. Period.

In what possible way would it make any sense for a mod to deliberately give away a scan result like that? You are stretching your horrific logic even further than usual. Why?
On the plus side, I suppose it's a good tell - if I ever understand a point you're trying to make, or worse yet, agree with one, then I'll know something's gone drastically wrong and you're probably scum...

Mattimeo quote:[spoiler]

For someone unlikely to be on at the deadline, it seemed like a clear self-defense vote disguised as scum hunting.

...there was an attempt to make it look anything like scum-hunting?
Certainly wasn't any attempt to pretend I was scum hunting D1. More putting my vote where it would do the least harm, given a need to actually put it somewhere. I seem to recall already spelling that out in justification, too.

The bolded part of this I very much dislike. It certainly makes me feel better about leaving my vote where it is.

Was wondering how long it would take someone to point that out. Any particular reason why Azza got you to field it, rather than continuing the cross-examination himself?

I would also be keen to hear Mattimeo's thoughts on Jowy at the moment.

I have been terrible at this whole 'sleeping' thing lately, so I should probably make an actual attempt at that now. Will have a look at Jowy this evening. Though Friday night means there's a toss-up whether I'll be back before you turn in

I would also be keen to hear Mattimeo's thoughts on Jowy at the moment.

I have been terrible at this whole 'sleeping' thing lately, so I should probably make an actual attempt at that now. Will have a look at Jowy this evening. Though Friday night means there's a toss-up whether I'll be back before you turn in

I know you're quite nocturnal Mattimeo, but this is a convenient time to be turning in (its breakfast time man!). By the time you get back from a party in 18 hours, the Jowy case might be a lot clearer. If I was feeling paranoid, I might say that the scum team want to wait until near deadline to decide whether or not to bus their scumbuddy Jowy. Who incidentally, when the roles were reversed, didn't have much to say about you either.

I haven't forgotten you my slippery Melbourne friend. Oh no I have not.

What do you mean? I'm always truthful when I say I'm going to sleep, and the time periods I say I'm unlikely to be around for

Anyway, Jowy:
Starks OK, echoing zak's wild theory with a crackpot one of his own, before recommending that everyone shuts up about it. Then goes on to use zak's theory as the backbone of a case against him
First time in D1 he mentions anything other than zak's opening remarks, and crackpot theories based on that, is mentioning Azza 10 minutes before the deadline:

Azza's game is odd. He wanted to lynch CH and said he'd only switch off him if CH showed he can contribute. Most of us seem to think he hasn't shown that, but Azza is now voting Mattimeo. Understandable if he had grave reasons to switch, but he did not tell us those if he did.

However, I basically agree with everything stated in his D1 wrap-up:

Notes:

Zak and MJW spent the whole time fighting each other and distracting the village, but in the end both switched off each other and ended up voting for a now-proven villager together.

Novice's votes:
- Jowy, to bandwagon with Zak
- MJW, for bad play
- Classical Hero, for bad play
In addition, wanted to policy lynch Serdoa before he started posting.
Zero votes for scumminess. Policy lynches are easy to hide behind.

Azarius and Zak also clashed and voted for each other, but in the end both switched off each other and ended up voting for a now-proven villager together.

Q, you voted Matt to get him to talk. He only made 5 posts, one more than CH. Matt said he would prefer to no-lynch, just like CH. The difference between them seems to be that one is new and the other is old, that's all. But later in the day, you were voting for CH, and wondering why people would vote for Matt, even though you voted for Matt yourself earlier and your case on CH is almost identical to the one people had on Matt.

Today he's been pretty obtuse, but definitely not as badly as novice and zak are making him out to be. I don't see any particular scum tells. In fact, I'm actually disinclined to vote for him specifically because of his confrontational attitude with them - in the off chance they are *both* scum, we really need someone doing that. And dissension is significantly more likely to result in slips or informational night-kills.

Though that 'timeline' is pretty much pure horseshit.

Really, Matt? Well, maybe I've got too locked in again, but I think that Jowy has had to be pushed hard to answer questions, and even then is still refusing to focus on anyone other than his accusers.

When you're being pushed that hard to answer questions you believe you already have, it can be rather difficult to widen your scum-dar to encompass anyone beyond your initial, strongly held suspicions, who just happen to be the ones attacking you. Being merely "petulantly anti-town" is about the best response I'd be considering in such a situation.

The more I look, the more I see "playing similar to how I would" tells, which I'm not generally likely to attribute to scum motivations...

If that is the case, I think the scumtwin is most likely Zak. I do partially agree with what Jowy and MJW have been saying - Zak introducing a hypothetical did lead to wasted time in Day 1, even if it wasn't him always bringing it up again. Zak was also the one to join Novice on flirting with a Serdoa lynch, then on voting me, and now pushing Jowy. Novice has been taking the lead more of the two, Zak is always second to the party.

I'd be more inclined to think it's novice, if it's only one of them. Only really gut in that, though, since I have a hard time actually analysing interaction tells on a higher level than that, and we don't yet have anything actually solid to go on.

You also play into this, Matt, because I feel that Jowy has notably avoided commenting on you, while you delayed a comment on him.

Well, the other option was leaving your question completely unresponded to 'til I got back and formulated the actual response to the question like I did.

Would I be more or less suspicious, in your mind, had #250 simply not existed?

First time in D1 he mentions anything other than zak's opening remarks, and crackpot theories based on that, is mentioning Azza 10 minutes before the deadline

Well that's not true at all and really easy to fact check. Why do you claim this?

Too lazy to properly fact check when I'm bullshitting.

Mattimeo, bear with me: did you vote for self-preservation yesterday or was it based on policy? It's not entirely clear.

Placing a vote was self-preservation, in the sense that it's impermissable not to.
Specifically putting it on MJW was due to that being the least harmful place to put it.

Would I be more or less suspicious, in your mind, had #250 simply not existed?

A little less, although in the end it didn't effect my thinking much because the votes are basically the same now as they were this morning, and you came back earlier than you suggested. The suspicion comes from the fact that you posted #249 first, showing that you HAD been online, you HAD had time to read, but as Azarius said you posted responses to MJW's wafflings instead of the Jowy case that had been the big issue of the hour.

Question was solely related to #250, and assumes the existence of #249. If #249 hadn't existed, there *definitely* wouldn't have been something along the lines of #250.

Also, I don't see how posting something 1 minute after you asked me a question indicates I had plenty of time to answer your question. It was 07:30 in the morning and I hadn't slept that night, ffs.

[Jowy]

TBH I don't like any of our three options today.. I have a village lean on both MJW and Matt, and I obviously don't want to die myself. Jkaen and Azza are two others I have a village lean on. Would be willing to join the bandwagon on anyone else. Btw I will also make a self-defense vote if necessary, just letting you know now.

[zakalwe]

Mattimeo's posts are actually a bit better in terms of content than what I remembered.

But I agree he's being too reactive and defensive, and too unfocused in terms of scumhunting. Pretty much in line with how he tends to play, though. He's voting for Azza and Azza is voting for him, but if that's a distancing act then Azza just gave him a pretty hard shove towards the gallows. (And Azza turned on Mattimeo out of the blue on day 1, too.)

Well I don't like how he piled on Jowy with a falsehood and when asked why says that he was bullshitting.

That was a bit cheeky, but I'm not sure that I would call it scummy.

I don't really think Jowy looks like squirming scum either, he's just too confident and stubborn for that. I'd say that if he's scum, he's being pretty cool under pressure. Perhaps playing up his internal "misguided villager", though (I've been there).

I'll put my vote on Azza for now. There's his post yesterday against Mattimeo, being quiet today, and justifying his final vote by elimination, with a kind of argument that is very easy to manipulate into yielding the result that he wants. And it's a logical alternative to Mattimeo, since they've been accusing each other.

I would also consider Azarius.

[zakalwe]

A tally would be good.

I was trying to tease something specific out of Mattimeo about his self-preservation vote yesterday. I know he's talked in the past about how villagers also try to stay alive, so I was curious to see if he would admit to doing that or perhaps deny it this time. His replies to that seemed natural, though, so that didn't really lead anywhere.

[novice]

Well I don't like how he piled on Jowy with a falsehood and when asked why says that he was bullshitting.

That was a bit cheeky, but I'm not sure that I would call it scummy.

I don't think building up a case under false pretenses should be forgiven just because it's cheekily explained away. His saving grace, upon rereading, is that he didn't actually conclude that Jowy was scum, so to say that he was piling on Jowy isn't really true either.

[zakalwe]

Indeed. That post looks initially like it's an attack on Jowy but then warps into a defense. And he also defends him a bit more in his next post.

[novice]

I notice that MJW is top of the post count. It's amazing how little scumhunting he has done with those posts.

MJW

[Jowy]

Unofficial (hopefully correct) tally, continued from Gazglum's.

MJW (3) - Jkaen, Q, Novice
Azza (2) - Mattimeo, Zakalwe
Mattimeo (2) - Azarius, Azza
Jowy (1) - Gazglum
Novice (1) - Jowy
Zakalwe (1) - MJW

Vote changes:
novice votes mattimeo
azza votes mattimeo
zakalwe votes azza
novice votes mjw

[Qgqqqqq]

Why do you play these games practically intending to get lynched? Yes, your best response to people asking you questions is to let them lynch you so you can laugh at us through your (likely arrogant) final thoughts.

Might have found a slip up. Does that not sound like he knows I'm a villager? That's how it sounds to me, and in the very same post he said he is inclined to kill me tonight.

I don't see how that is a slip up - regardless of you're alignment, you are playing horribly, and you should be defending against a lynch and not letting it come so you can laugh at it. Sure, I'll be more pissed about your defence if you flip village today, but if you flip scum I'm more inclined to feel sorry for your fellow wolves. I guess the laughter bit is also a call back to 26, where you were just as refused to cast a vote the day you were lynched.
Whatever you are, we do still want you to defend, as that gives interaction tells for future days if scum. But if you are village, understand that you are playing really anti-town today.
And yeah, obviously I mean to kill you tonight

Jowy won't stop feeling enormously scummy to me, but I'm a bit worried that he'll just end up being a villager playing badly...
Can we get a tally?