I'm around another hour or so but will probably be sleeping through deadline after that. Actually, I'll try to get up, just to see if Lewwyn has anything to add.
I'm not as sure as I would like to be but I think I'm unlikely to move my vote.
Your non-claim related activities are pretty bad too tbh. Avoiding Lewwyn, and not responding to Gazglums attack on you earlier today.
Jabbz also seems to have been thinking as a cop for longer this game than you have.
It's either Jabbz or DP, so its easy. Jabbz is actually thinking abotu the game, he has a theory for what the scum pair is, and he has also looked at every other player, considered if they could be scum, and rejected them for logical reasons. His reasoning about cop was laid out and made sense. He was happy to claim.
DP has avoided responding to questions. He tried to wriggle out of claiming. He has done no scumhutning. He has repeatedly said that everyone is town, until suddenly becoming certain that Jabbz and I are scum. It is a huge reach, but say DP is town. In that case, he only knows that Jabbz is scum, and not who his partner is. Lewwyn is playing a very scummy game, so you would think that DP would look there. But instead, DP is suddenly certain that I am the scum partner, although I was 'locktown' earlier, and he has pointed to nothing to give a reason why I am no longer.
Townies main job is to try and put the pieces together and say so-and-so is scum because of X. Scum spend their time rebutting, and try to get into a 1v1 with a townie so they can drown out the lack of logical followthrough with noise.
I mean, sometimes you just know, Novice. Look at DPs play, and you know.
(January 14th, 2017, 17:03)Gazglum Wrote: It's either Jabbz or DP, so its easy. Jabbz is actually thinking abotu the game, he has a theory for what the scum pair is, and he has also looked at every other player, considered if they could be scum, and rejected them for logical reasons. His reasoning about cop was laid out and made sense. He was happy to claim.
DP has avoided responding to questions. He tried to wriggle out of claiming. He has done no scumhutning. He has repeatedly said that everyone is town, until suddenly becoming certain that Jabbz and I are scum. It is a huge reach, but say DP is town. In that case, he only knows that Jabbz is scum, and not who his partner is. Lewwyn is playing a very scummy game, so you would think that DP would look there. But instead, DP is suddenly certain that I am the scum partner, although I was 'locktown' earlier, and he has pointed to nothing to give a reason why I am no longer.
Townies main job is to try and put the pieces together and say so-and-so is scum because of X. Scum spend their time rebutting, and try to get into a 1v1 with a townie so they can drown out the lack of logical followthrough with noise.
I mean, sometimes you just know, Novice. Look at DPs play, and you know.
Not touching the first paragraph, but the second is pretty much slander. Point out the questions that I have refused to answer. Point at where I said that claiming should never happen, you will only see me recommending it being later in the day, a position I held for a grand total of 2 hours before dropping and heading the other way. Stating that I think everyone is town is a stretching of my claimed lack of confidence in my reads, and you being incredulous at Jabbz being scum is straight up bizarre, given that our claims conflict how could I not think he is mafia (although I do see your point about my suspicion on you being sudden). The entire reason that I think you must be his scumbuddy is basically just your posts that completely refuse to acknowledge any points I make and instead blindly side with Jabbz, plus a growing uneasiness with how quickly you jump on anything that could lead to a mislynch. In what universe can you say that I shouldn't have put Jabbz as my top scum so quickly after claiming? I think I need to step away from the game for a bit, this is making me slightly annoyed.
(January 14th, 2017, 17:15)Dp101 Wrote: Not touching the first paragraph, but the second is pretty much slander. Point out the questions that I have refused to answer.
I became pretty much certain you were scum after you refused to respond to post #219. That may not have seemed like a huge attack, but it was me weighing you in the balance. A townie would have responded, explained his thinking. You pretended that post never happened.
I could just possibly be unsure on you, if you were gunning for Lewwyn. Lewwyn is so obviously scum, that if you had joined everyone else in attacking him, it would have given you cover. I mean, you said he looked scummy before, and he sure look scummier now. But you didn't.
ANd DP, don't be upset. This game can be brutal, and make you feel bad, and when ti does I think you should take a step away and spend time with realworld people instead. It is jsut a game. I don't think I've treated your posts unfairly, and I stopped responding to you because I wanted things to end with good cheer. I think you and Lewwyn ahd bad luck with your time zones, and with the role allocations, and sometimes things just turn out bad for one team in a small game. And if I am wrong about you, then think of it as a moral vctory, in that I will look like a tremendous Dumbo tomorrow and we can all have a good laugh. We're friends, you've played well, I am impressed by these recent posts, and I am committed to my vote. In the most meaningful way I can say, Good Game, DP.
(January 14th, 2017, 17:15)Dp101 Wrote: Not touching the first paragraph, but the second is pretty much slander. Point out the questions that I have refused to answer.
I became pretty much certain you were scum after you refused to respond to post #219. That may not have seemed like a huge attack, but it was me weighing you in the balance. A townie would have responded, explained his thinking. You pretended that post never happened.
I could just possibly be unsure on you, if you were gunning for Lewwyn. Lewwyn is so obviously scum, that if you had joined everyone else in attacking him, it would have given you cover. I mean, you said he looked scummy before, and he sure look scummier now. But you didn't.
And DP, don't be upset. This game can be brutal, and make you feel bad, and when it does I think you should take a step away and spend time with realworld people instead. It is just a game. I don't think I've treated your posts unfairly, and I stopped responding to you because I wanted things to end with good cheer. I think you and Lewwyn had bad luck with your time zones, and with the role allocations, and sometimes things just turn out bad for one team in a small game. And if I am wrong about you, then think of it as a moral victory, in that I will look like a tremendous Dumbo tomorrow and we can all have a good laugh. We're friends, you've played well, I am impressed by these recent posts, and I am committed to my vote. In the most meaningful way I can say, Good Game, DP.
This post makes me feel like you are town, if it is novice then rip me I guess, all my reads are trash. Here, I fixed your typos as a peace offering.
So onto the important stuff. First and foremost, yes, I am claiming Cop. Last night I scanned Gazglum. It took me a while to figure who I was going to work with, but I gravitated to Gaz and Lewwyn. Lewwyn of course just looked bad, he has been very aggressive, and I didn't get a lot of town hunting vibe out of him. What I did get was a lot of chaos sowing. Gaz, as I noted before end of day 1, I have a huge weak spot for. You'll notice my concern about him however, when I talk about being stabbed in the chest.
Going into the night, I was confident that novice was town. His scum hunting felt legit, and I liked the way he pursued me, it felt like genuine searching, not someone looking to pin something on someone. Winston I was somewhat ambivalent to. He had a low post count, and wasn't really shining either way. What he did have going for him however, was that he was voting against Lewwyn, who I felt pretty sure was dirty. More importantly than that, he didnt have a finger on the rope that swung AdrienIer. I found it unlikely that scum wouldn't have at least one person on the mislynch, and the only places he had been was me and Lewwyn. That left either Dp101, or Gazglum.
Now, given the constant bickering between Gaz and Lewwyn, I was positive at least one, if not both, were scum. Either Lewwyn was scum and Gaz was hot on his trail, Gaz was scum and was hounding Lewwyn to distraction (unlikely), or they both were and were shooting for some distancing. I felt pretty good going into the night that if either were town, neither one of them would be a ripe scum kill target, because there was just too much to exploit the following day in making things look ugly due to their survival.
So, if I scan Lewwyn, and he pops town, something I felt very unlikely, then I would know Gaz was scum. The interactions they had just didn't make sense between two townies. If I scanned Lewwyn and he was scum.... I would know nothing about Gaz. Still could be town, and could be scum. At that point it's a crap shoot between him and Dp101, and I don't trust my judgement in that situation. So I take the course of action that gives me the best of both worlds. Scan Gaz, clear or convict him, and move on.
As for breadcrumbs, I didn't want to leave something obvious. I was pretty sure I was riding the middle ground of too scummy to kill to towny to lynch, but if I gave a hint I was a cop, I'd die. So the best I could do was let Adrien know I would make his death work for us.
The other thing you might have noticed, especially novice, is that I never got worried when I was being attacked as being scummy this game. The reason for that was simple, I had a badge up my sleeve. If I got anywhere near the lynch, I would just claim. Day one wasn't lylo, so town could afford to leave me one extra night. I might get blocked, but I would be unlikely to die as the doc would cover me, and if nothing else we would go into day 2 with a somewhat confirmed town, and no chance of the doc being blocked.
This is why I was so happy to do the massclaim. Gaz and Lewwyn I felt I had locked in pretty good. With the claims, someone was going to either claim what I had, or what Gaz had, and that person(s) were scum. I would have preferred to make Lewwyn claim first, but with Dp outing himself as scum, it's all good.
Sorry Dp101 but the gig is up.
Today we lynch Dp101, tonight I scan Lewwyn, and doc protects me. In the morning, I'll know for sure if it's Lewwyn or novice, and we win with a 2 to 1 vote.
GG.
*Note* Had to remove my quote above (the part where I quote my breadcrumbing) for the spoiler to work properly. It is still in the original text obviously.
(January 14th, 2017, 14:11)Dp101 Wrote: Ok then, from the top. Firstly, I admit that I too also have a weak spot for Gaz, but the thing is, do you have proof that his scum game can replicate his town game very well? I understand feeling like you always townread them, but IIRC Gaz is in fact almost always town, so I'm left wondering where your proof of Gaz being a dangerous wolf you need to scan comes from. Also, if Gaz was in fact town, I'm pretty sure that they would have been a candidate for the night kill (or at least I thought they were), and in a setup this small every cleared town, no matter who they are, is very valuable, so why wouldn't you scan someone you thought would live to ensure that your role was good?
The answer to this question is either you decided to fake a scan on town to get their vote, or you faked a peak on your wolfbuddy to ensure that me + Novice wouldn't vote them to get to the magic 3 number (in case Lew didn't change his vote), but I'm undecided as to which scenario is more likely.
I think you are missing one of the major points I made in my post. I didn't say that I thought Gaz was scum, in fact I said quite the opposite, and nowhere in this game did I say I suspected him. What I said was that the Lewwyn/Gazglum interaction was a place where I could determine the greatest amount of information by scanning. As to Gaz being a potential night kill, please also note I address that when I say "I felt pretty good going into the night that if either were town, neither one of them would be a ripe scum kill target, because there was just too much to exploit the following day in making things look ugly due to their survival." Basically, why kill Gaz, when you can continue the argument the next day, muddying the water. A dead town Gaz gives too much to town, and eliminates one of the major arguments.
(January 14th, 2017, 14:11)Dp101 Wrote: I can understand reading Novice as town at this stage, I was pretty damn close to that too, it was only paranoia holding me back. But, why so uncertain on Winston? Your only comment on them is their low posting, which they have displayed in at least half of the games I have played with them, so it is a null tell at best. You now throw weak suspicion at them in order to deliberately not look like you were 100% right, to make you look more believably kinda-scummy as many town end up being. Also, your analysis of votes in regards to them is very coloured by hindsight, you should have realised that it could have been a W/W mudthrowing exercise with Winston voting a buddy that wasn't going to swing, but instead you decide that that rescued his position from being scummy? What did he need to be brought up from? This entire read is bizarre. Then, you decide that there must have been scum on the AdrienIer wagon, but why exactly 1? The mislynch didn't have much opposition, and the alternative is probably town at this stage, so they could have had zero on there. Why is it that scanning Gaz means that I must have been scum, over Novice potentially being mafia?
Why wouldn't I be confident that Winston was town? Because he hadn't done much either way. I don't "throw weak suspicion" on him, I flat out say I was mostly null towards him, and that his voting for Lewwyn tipped him towards town lean for me.
As to the issue of the Adrien votes, why exactly one? I didn't say that, nor imply it in any way. What I said, was that I was "I found it unlikely that scum wouldn't have at LEAST one person on the mislynch." You can look at the spoilered section above, I put it in bold for you. Yes it is possible that there were no scum on that lynch, but I find it more likely that scum would have participated than I do that three town would have gotten it wrong. If you look back, you will find that most if not all of the other three voters (me, Lewwyn, and Winston) didn't even really cast shade on him. That decreases the likelihood even more in my book.
More importantly from this section however, is that nothing about scanning Gaz meant that you were scum. You did that work for me when you claimed the role that I had. Even if it had, in a straight up contest of who is more scummy this game, between you and novice there isn't even a question. You win.
(January 14th, 2017, 14:11)Dp101 Wrote: The paragraph about a potential W/W interaction between Lew and Gaz is good, healthy thoughts for a townie, and match mine perfectly, so I have nothing there I can call you on. Literally the only part that seems odd is your utter certainty that there is at least 1 mafia in there, I have seen some incredibly long feuds between 2 town players, and your refusal to acknowledge this situation smacks of campaigning for Novice's vote rather than examining them, you know, like a town player would be doing to find my teammate. Remember who defended me from you pretty much constantly? Novice, that's who. If you were in the business of finding a buddy for me, as you were in this post, why wouldn't you assume them? You are just lazy mafia setting up a mislynch (well, not sure if lazy can apply to someone who would type up so many words, but whatever).
I'm not entirely sure how to respond to this, you're kind of all over the place here, but I'll give it a shot.
You find it odd that I say that one of Lewwyn and Gaz is scum based on their interaction. The thing is, it wasn't about the length of the feud, it was about the content, reactions, and tone. Lewwyn didn't sound like a townie scum hunting. I know you said,
Dp101
I mean scumhunting in that he isn't just defending, but seems like he thinks he has caught a scum in Gaz. My progression on him basically goes townish-locktown-townish-potential scum. Also, again, thoughts on changing the claim schedule?
[/quote' Wrote: , but that isn't scum hunting. Its omgusing, and its retaliation. It's not searching for the truth. There was also some massive tunneling going on there. That interaction just didn't feel like town vs town.
As to your next point, I'm not "looking for your buddy" in this post. I'm pretty sure I found him. Yes novice has defended you, but I also generally like his tone this game. Besides which, you will notice that I state that I'd rather lynch you first because I know you're town, and I don't know for sure novice is. This was covered already. We lynch you, I get protected and scan Lewwyn, and in the AM we lynch him if it pops scum, novice if it pops town. You try to claim I'm being lazy scum, but the only way you can even try to make it look that way is ignoring things I already covered, or attributing things to me that I didn't do.
[quote='Dp101' pid='620747' dateline='1484421096']
The following paragraph is basically just an extension of the previous one, still about Gaz/Lew, so I don't have much new to say other than why not scan Lew, the guy who is basically never NK'd between the two of them. You can still gain information if they are scum, even more if they are town, and yet you just throw away that idea.
No, I don't "just throw away that idea." I articulated very clearly (again bolded up above for you) why I decided to scan Gaz. It just gave me more information than scanning Lewwyn would have done.
(January 14th, 2017, 14:11)Dp101 Wrote: Calling that post breadcrumbing is stretching pretty hard, it is just what you said, telling him that his death would work for us, which isn't role indicative at all. At this point I should also state that I did not breadcrumb at all, I felt I would probably screw it up and make it be obvious, and it's not like I could actually be protected if any town realised early, so all it would lead to is my untimely death.
The point of breadcrumbing is to be to be subtle. Again, I covered my concern with being caught above. But it wasn't just saying his death would work for us. You may not be a BSG fan, so you may have missed it, but I only once referenced the content during the entire game. My plan was to do the same with tonight's breadcrumb if we got there. "So say we all," is the ceremonial prayer for BSG, and is used to reference conviction. I wasn't just saying we might get info, I was saying I'm going to make SURE that his death isn't wasted. Subtle yes, but that's the point of a breadcrumb, its not obvious until it's pointed out later. What did you want, for me to pull a novice (I think it was novice) and spell out a message using the first letter of each sentence? Aside from being a lot of work, that's been done before.
It's also a little ironic that you complain I didn't breadcrumb well enough while admitting you (conveniently) didn't breadcrumb at all.
(January 14th, 2017, 14:11)Dp101 Wrote: Refusing to acknowledge the possibility of counterclaims is highly amusing to me when you and me both know that my claim is legit here, even if you can't say in-thread. I am surprised however that you thought it would be a clear path out of the line of a lynch, given that I know the thought of exactly this, the inevitable counterclaim showdown between me and someone else, dominated my thoughts all N1. Did you forget the fact that you are meant to be claiming a Macho Cop who CANNOT BE DOCTORED? Or is the fact that you don't actually have the PM affecting your ability to remember the setup as it was given to us? The actual cop would never make such a mistake.
Not adressing the final paragraph and the vote, because I have nothing more to say.
Hats off to you Jabbz though, this is an impressive performance.
Nice try with attempting to turn flavor into an argument, but you'll notice that the only part put in parentheses, is cop. Just like the "agent" in Cylon Agent (goon), or the "seducer" in Psylon Seducer (roleblocker), it's just to keep with the flavor of the theme. If you haven't seen the show, the hot blond that is constantly distracting Baltar is doing so through seduction. Cylon "agent" is referring to the psylons that wear human skin and pass for humans. Macho security guard most likely refers to Sgt. Hadrian, who is PUT IN CHARGE of the investigation during an episode in episode six, and given the power to investigate people. She is rough, aggressive, and when she gets power she goes nuts with it. She's also the only security guard of note during the series.
I applaud you for pulling out all the stops, it was a good performance, but you've been caught dead to rights. Your arguments above only make sense if you ignore things I said, or credit me with things I didn't say.
Fuuuu, forum ate my post again. Lets try it again, although I cannot guarantee sanity, I'm pretty much clutching at straws here + this post was constructed over several hours so my reads change throughout, and I don't even know why I'm trying anymore. Firstly, if you weren't reading Gaz as mafia at all, why admit that you have a weakness to him? If you feel he is town, then you should have stated it boldly. As is, you are bending over backwards to find a reason to scan someone that isn't scanworthy at all. I still don't understand why you don't just scan Lew here.
I still don't understand why you were so uncertain on Winston. Wolves don't post a tiered reads list like he did under no pressure, he seemed like a town trying to hunt when everyone else seemed town.
As for criticism of the wagon, I thought you stated that there had to have been 1 because of 2 things. One, you refused to consider Novice being my buddy for no apparent reason, even though we fit pretty well together given his unprompted defence of me. Two, you, as mentioned, don't believe that 3 town can be that wrong. I have seen D1 mislynches go off before with zero mafia on the wagon, so you refusing to consider this makes it seem like you are merely bending the truth to make it easier to lie, with your partner Gaz being on it. Convince the audience (i.e. Novice and Lew) that there was scum on the wagon pls.
I don't really know how to handle your next rebuttal, other than, well, what could you be doing with considering other scum other than looking for my buddy? I still need convincing that claiming that the guy who has had trouble being here is scum is anything other than looking for the easiest followup lynch. Moot point anyway since after I die it is game over.
I still disagree that trying to get even more knowledge out of a scan beats scanning someone you know will live, but you are pretty obstinate on this point and no one is willing to be convinced by my posts, so no point hammering on this one point any harder.
I wasn't complaining that you didn't breadcrumb, I was just not seeing why you said that that post was breadcrumbing. Thanks for explaining, still feels like a post you made earlier with no plan to use as breadcrumbing, but energy fading and willingness to argue is too.
Rant inside.
Anyway, I'm just feeling really really down about this game right now. I have no decisions to make anymore, all I can do is push and hope that town cares, but I can't convince anyone. I had exactly one job as cop, don't let anyone stop me from getting my scans out, and I failed that. All I got was a no result, no one who is town responds to my post, people still refuse to claim, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. In my entire mafia career, I rolled vanilla town 6 times in a row offsite. Do you know how many of those I won? 1, and that's because the game was called due to too much bad blood, which is what Jabbz was referring to earlier. I am seriously considering not playing, because what is the point when I can only win if I roll scum? Every game I play, town has a greater chance of losing just because I'm there. Take this game for example. If anyone else rolled cop, they would have been able to avoid the roleblock and scan, then win the counterclaim battle. instead I did, and town are going to lose because of it.
To close off, I just have one more question for my absent audience. Why the hell do I claim a roleblocked cop? I am having trouble thinking of a possible weaker claim. Even if as mafia I have decided that I have no choice but to counter the cop claim, why don't I just say that I wasn't roleblocked? I either get an ally or can explain why I'm not lynching my buddy, and alternatively can push a different lynch. I made the worst possible mafia play, and while I might be stupid I don't think I'm quite that bad.
