Corrected something I missed at the end of my previous post. Also of note:
- If we do want to plant on the hill where GJ's warrior is standing, our own warrior should stand on the same tile at least a turn or two before our Settler arrives. This would prevent GJ from blocking our settlement via war declaration (since his warrior would be the one that would teleport if he declared).
- The Sheep site is not aggressive or threatening to GJ, but if we want GJ to be able to one-turn it frrom the fog, we probably need to found it and a city on GJ-Warrior Hill ASAP, and tech Mysticism soon enough for each of them to whip a monument. (Sheep/Silver could chop+whip a Barracks like Muqa did, but that would use up its only forest, and the hill city has no forests at all and would take forever to build a barracks.)
- If we do end up controlling sheep/silver city's BFC, then GJ's city would be under severe pressure. This is what I meant about the difficulty of establishing reasonable borders. If we plant the sheep/silver site, that would be a little like dtay planting on the bananas north of Borte, but contesting less-important tiles ... except that instead of blocking off GJ's main path to our land the way a dtay banana city would for ours, it would be way off to one side, needing other supporting cities just to keep it from becoming completely isolated.
- I honestly have no idea what to do with that border region. Some more scouting might help, but I don't see any good solutions, what with Tokuzulu to our north. Maybe you have a better idea than I do here....
Also, maybe it'll help if I sleep on it. In the meantime though, as promised:
There was a time when prides of lions were a terror of the night - not only a tale to frighten children, but a dread that the parents who told them could feel in their hearts. They roamed wild across the isthmus, mounting often to the highlands just in view of the Khatunate subjects who lived in the northern woods, apex predators who traveled where they wished, afraid of nothing. They fought vicious territorial battles with one another and other predators, and chased prey up and down the mountains and valleys of the isthmus roaring defiance against any challenge, even frightening the little families and tribes of humans who huddled alone against the cold of winter and the darkness of the night - until another predator entered their lands in force: A predator less powerful, lest swift to strike, but far more cunning and ultimately more deadly as a result: In small numbers, ignorant humans might be vulnerable to a pride of hunting cats, but the Irves clan of the Khatunate was neither ignorant nor small. They set up their camps in the taiga from whose high slopes they could see the northern forests of Khatunate land, and they hunted where they wished, grazing herds of sheep among the highland grasses and protecting them with clubs hewn from the wood of highland forests, the bones of cattle, and carven stones taken - according to the tribe's legends - from the foundations of Borte itself, and passed down as heirlooms through the generations, from parent to child.
At first, they were challenged by prides of the region's many lions, and the battles that ensued had an impact on the Irves: The lions killed a few of their number, but did far greater damage by savaging and especially frightening away many of the clan's herds of sheep. The Irves only improved their defensive measures though, strengthening their ties to one another, their motherland, and their faith, and trapped, killed, and captured the most aggressive of the lions, decimating their numbers over the course of some forty years. The dwindling remnants of the lion prides were the ones that had learned long before neither to trust nor to fight nor when possible ever to approach the monstrous apes who strode on their hind feet, wore the skins of other animals as second pelts, and in battle wielded the bones of slaughtered beasts and the stones of the earth itself. Though never truly tamed, nor driven entirely from the land, such few isthmus lions as survived near the Toli plateau learned to steer well clear of humanity, and over the generations that followed, the Irves in their taiga steadily restored their herds of sheep from the valley to the east, and bolstered their numbers accordingly, intermarrying sometimes with little families of mountain folk or small tribes from the hills and valleys, but maintaining their traditions as a cohesive clan and as servants of the Khatunate and its Eternal Empress, rebuilding their strength as they traveled down into the wooded foothills in the north, back down into the valley where they still found the best grazings and breeding stock for their herds of sheep, where they met and exchanged news with the leaders of clan Ulamjlal: An ancient clan of the Khatunate that still had regular commerce with distant Borte, exchanging messengers and traders with such regularity that their footsteps had packed down the earth into a smooth road that ran all the way to the Eastern Alph in Khatunate territory, whence trade could continue with the Tusgal Nuur region by barge, raft, and canoe.
It seemed another clan - the Ankhny Tsus - had found their way through deep, dry forests to the northeast to a fertile river estuary, with fields of maize growing thick below northern valleys where cattle grazed in herds that stretched to the horizon, and in sight of high, snow-capped mountains at whose feet rumors spoke of precious ores that shone in the light of the sun. Among the local legends were heroic tales of the Üneg who had passed through before - a long-last clan of the Khatunate according to legends spoken in Borte - but the Ankhny Tsus weren't passing. They had traveled far over many years to investigate the region of which legend and rumor spoke, to confirm it was safe to visit, and to act as forward guards for the likes of the Ulamjlal and others of the Khatunate's subjects: Hundreds already streaming down the road from the Eastern Alph, having traveled down-river from Borte, already beginning with the help of great stone axes to fell the many trees they would need for building materials as they began to assemble a new settlement alongside the estuary: A new Borte at the edge of the river. The settlement was to be named for the wise Udgan who first had suggested the expedition to the river's edge on the trail of the ancient Üneg legends: To the city of Borte, with its beautiful Palace of the Eternal Empress, some part of her people over the course of the next few decades would be adding the small but swift-growing city of Muqa.
The elders of the Irves gathered more and more often as more word came up the path, with trade goods or private possessions in the hands of more and more people eager to work in the cornfields and the pasture land, or in the city itself below them both, between the rumored silver lodes and the sea. The Ankhny Tsus, little interested in settling down after generations of wandering, had expressed their interest by messenger in returning to the Borte region to fulfill their duties. The Irves though, for their part, were deeply intrigued by the tales of Muqa, the new city-to-be. There was a great deal of work to be done in the valley, gathering sheep for their herds and guarding the road and its waves of immigrants while a more-permanent local defense force was being trained, but once that work was done, they were free to accompany the Ulamjlal northeastward, out toward Muqa itself, where the paths of the two clans might diverge, but where each might find a welcome home: The Ulamjlal in the cornfields and the Irves in the city itself. The people of the Irves clan had traveled the wilderness for generations, alone among strangers and wild beasts, ambassadors for the Khatunate and protectors of other wandering clans. For them, the building of Muqa was almost akin to the ancient beginnings of the Khatunate itself with the settling of the ancient clans around the Palace of the Eternal Empress at the heart of what would become Borte, the capital of the Khatunate.
Photo credits:
Stone axe: Klemens Niesen (axe created by Kai Martens, using only stone-age tools )
Boat and bullock cart: BBC
Riverside village: Pak Donatus Langit
For the first time I got to play a double turn! It looks like the turn pace has picked up a bit. On turn 40 I should have continued scouting with our warrior. Oops, I mixed up the plans. Oh well, it could have been a lot worse. I decided to turn around to get a better picture of our SE. Note that we met dtay`s scout down there. That`s a strong tell that the land does not continue in that direction I think. Maybe we can get a view of Sparta in the next couple of turns. And yes - Athens was size 6 when I checked. Well, he can`t have that many workers right now, (though he`ll probably whip some soon).
I really don`t like the border region that we share with GJ.
I think we ought to get that wet corn in our first ring no matter what. If we don`t do it, then GJ surely will. Building on flatland N of that hill where his warrior currently is, has to be a bad idea. GJ could move a slow mover stack on hills right next to our city and then siege it. Building on that hill will, as you say, be very aggressive. I`m not so happy about detouring to mysticism (and building monuments), as we really want our cities to build more useful buildings or units at this stage. A city west of that river next to the corn is just indefensible. Building east of that river is a bit awkward to defend as well, as it`s a long way from the rest of our cities. Of course we have to spend a ton of worker turns as well in order to be able to be able to get it up to speed. The question is: Do we have any better options? I still see this as the least bad option.
I think you're right that a city east of the corn is our best bet purely as a strategic location. The city itself will be weak until Iron Working, and will never be amazing, but it doesn't compete for any tiles with GJ's city, and it effectively establishes the border with a single city on each side, apart from the sheep/silver area, where his supply lines would be much longer than ours. In any case, it means we'll have two cities on the front instead of three.
Is the plan to make this our fourth city? I assume it won't be our third in any case...
The demographics screen you posted looks like it's from turn 41, before ending turn. Is that right? Whereas the MFG and power graphs look like they're from turn 42. Did you check the demos from turn 42 as well? (I realize I haven't had much to say about them lately - too much other stuff to look at! - but there's still good information there.)
Also on the demos: I should have spotted back on turn 30 - or at least by turn 31 - that Dark Savant had copper at his capital; I wasn't paying close enough attention at the time - sorry about that! We still wouldn't have known where at the capital, except for maybe inferring it was under a forest, so it might not have ultimately mattered for our plan. What I really want to know though is - given Exp and his tech and build order - why did it take Dark Savant all the way to turn 30 before he started working his copper mine? Whatever his reason was, he is the first to three cities, so maybe there's a method to his madness - but even with that third city, he has fewer total citizens than us, and I believe fewer workers as well.
We`re playing the mongols, who are highly dependent on making lots of high-XP mounted units. It`s a bit strange that both of our neighbors have spearman replacements as their unique units! Well, I probably still would have complained if we had Gavagai (CRE borders are just awful to play against) or Krill (he`s a good player with tons of civ experience) as a neighbor instead.
I always look forward to reading your stories. Imo they`re best combined with a good cup of coffee. (I drink a lot of coffee!). And you are of course welcome to make micro plans later on with a specific goal in mind. I`ll try to incorporate them as best as I can.
And then finally: Where should our 3rd, 4th and 5th cities go? My thinking is that city 3 should have horses and a food source in the first ring. Actually I`m thinking about planting that fourth city northwest. We can`t delay that good city site too long. It has 12 food hammers at size 2 after all. Maybe our fifth city can be down south E of the corn. Of course, by then GJ could have planted a city to invalidate our spot. It`s good strategically but doesn`t contribute as much as our other cities until IW, as you say. I don`t think it`s good enough to be our third city anyway.
(June 8th, 2017, 14:29)RefSteel Wrote: The demographics screen you posted looks like it's from turn 41, before ending turn. Is that right? Whereas the MFG and power graphs look like they're from turn 42. Did you check the demos from turn 42 as well? (I realize I haven't had much to say about them lately - too much other stuff to look at! - but there's still good information there.)
Dark Savant is the first to three cities, so maybe there's a method to his madness - but even with that third city, he has fewer total citizens than us, and I believe fewer workers as well.
Yes, I think that`s correct. I played back to back turns, so I thought that grabbing a demographics screenshot from both turns would be a waste. I could log in to post it right now, if you like?
Dark Savant is trying to build a lot of cities it seems. I believe that GJ`s strategy of building big cities is superior here.
Fortunately, Phallanxes aren't a spear replacement: They're just axes that counteract the normal Chariot attack bonus against them, and are no better than regular axes against our Keshiks and later mounted units! Getting stuck between RtR Churchill and Tokuzulu is no picnic, especially as both are run by extremely capable players, but we're still doing well overall, and there's nothing we can do about neighbor luck except hope the other new players put on a good showing too!
Thanks for the demo screen; since you posted the graphs from turn 42, another set from the turn before would indeed have been redundant, but the demographics are an up-to-the-second snapshot, so there's always new information to be gained after the turn rolls and builds and techs complete. (Or even after another person plays their turn, but logging in a billion times a turn like Dark Savant is a lot of effort for very little gain.)
And it's great to see that Borte is still/again rightfully in place among the Greatest Cities of the World! (It may well be all the way up in second place next turn! The only players ahead of us right now are GJ, Krill, and Gavagai, I believe.)
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