RB PBEM #1 - Gandhi [spoilers]

[Ruff_Hi]

sooooo has been bugging me about Paper, he wants to start on Edu, lightbulb it and then beat us all to Liberalism. We chatted ...

Show Recent Messages (F3)

sooooo: hello, time to talk?
sooooo: was going to email but then decided to open messenger
ruff_hi: hi paul - yes, a little
sooooo: lords was pretty cool
sooooo: lots of aussie fans
ruff_hi: oh - someonpe pointed out that the 3rd test isn't at headingly
sooooo: oh
ruff_hi: it sounded very noicy from what cricinfo was saying
sooooo: maybe edgbaston then
ruff_hi: yeah - somewhere in England
sooooo:
ruff_hi: I've been to the Oval - not to Lords
sooooo: not been to oval acually, just headingly, trent bridge and now lords
sooooo: anyway, regarding the PBRM
sooooo: PBEM *
ruff_hi: wow - are true cricket follower ...
ruff_hi: yep
sooooo: so if you're not sure what dreylin is researching it could be any time before you get mc?
ruff_hi: well - he tells me 4 to 5 turns
ruff_hi: and I'm not sure how big of a tech it actually is at the moment
sooooo: i doubt he has time to fit anything in before mc and still get it in 4-5 turns so he must be on mc now
sooooo: so
ruff_hi: he is a little dirty at me at the moment (I finished H Sophia and he was building it)
sooooo: i am finishing machinery next turn. could you do me a favour and ship me paper now you have a definite agreement to get mc?
sooooo: wow, not often people fight over that wonder!
sooooo: (obv can't do it until i get CS)
ruff_hi: well - I was building it so you couldn't
sooooo: oh right
ruff_hi: didn't want you getting a 3rd source of GE points
sooooo: oh i see
sooooo: I gotta say i didn't even think about tha
sooooo: t
sooooo: probably wouldn't have built it anyway
ruff_hi: oh right: I understand you wanting to get a move on Education - some nice stuff to build with that tech
sooooo: yeah
ruff_hi: I'll have to take a good look at sending you paper early
ruff_hi: see how that impacts my civ
ruff_hi: actaully - I quite like being the only one that can trade maps (at the moment)
sooooo: 4-5 turns is too long to wait and you don't even know if he's researching it
ruff_hi: and you certainly picked the right time to trade with me - after everyone else had
ruff_hi: let me confirm that with Dreylin and get back to you
sooooo: waitasec
ruff_hi: are you hoping to go right into Edu after Machinary?
sooooo: yep
sooooo: if you're not going to then just say so
ruff_hi: I'm currently accumulating $
ruff_hi: but I do have it parked on Edu - cheap uni for me too
sooooo: i could perhaps ask mh to just gift you mc
sooooo: if you have an agreement to get it then it shouldn't hurt anyone
ruff_hi: and really cut Dreylin out of the loop
sooooo: not at all
sooooo: you just give him whatever you agreed to give him
ruff_hi: well - how does he trade it to me for any value?
sooooo: he gifts it to you
sooooo: you still get mc
sooooo: it's the same
ruff_hi: I don't think that will work - dreylin is sure to get the hump over that one
sooooo: not at all
sooooo: he doesn't lose anything
sooooo: he still gets your tech
sooooo: and you get yours
ruff_hi: do you talk to Dreylin much - he already has a little hump over HS
sooooo: a little
sooooo: not as much as you since we don't have any deals at the moment
ruff_hi: I'll look at it - best I can do
sooooo: i'd make a deal but he reasarched music
sooooo: if you're going to screw me over i'd like to know upfront
ruff_hi: as in ... not trade you paper?
sooooo: since you won't even accept a gift?
ruff_hi: I totally want to go through with the paper / Mach deal
sooooo: well, indefinitely delay getting MC, exploiting our agreement to the letter
ruff_hi: but I don't think I am too keen on fronting you a tech
ruff_hi: ok, I can see how you would see that
ruff_hi: let me go back and push Dreylin
sooooo: you said you'd consider fronting the tech if you had a definite agreement to get it
sooooo: (that was with mh)
ruff_hi: I did - not sure I say that but I will take you word for it
ruff_hi: I should have his emails around here somewhere
ruff_hi: or is it in yours?
sooooo: "f mh and I had an agreement regarding MC, then we could revisit the fronting situation."
ruff_hi: email from me to you?
sooooo: yes
ruff_hi: ok - again, let me review
ruff_hi: how long until you actually finish Mech?
ruff_hi: 1 turn?
sooooo: yep 1 turn
ruff_hi: so you cannot start Edu until 2 turns from now
ruff_hi: assuming you clear paper
sooooo: may be 3 turns
sooooo: it may take me a turn or two to get cs
ruff_hi: saving gold?
ruff_hi: oh
ruff_hi: its T78 at the moment?
ruff_hi: is that right?
sooooo: think mh is on for T78 CS, but may be T79
sooooo: not sure the turn, but last time i checked he had the same eta as me for cs as i had machinery
ruff_hi: ok - I will talk to Dreylin and see if he can firm up his MC trade timetable
sooooo: well if it's still 4-5 turns then that's too long
ruff_hi: but I think a 1 or 2 turn difference between paper and mech should be ok
sooooo: are you rejecting the idea of mh gifting the tech?
ruff_hi: to be honest - haven't talked to mh for ages
sooooo: you could steal it from me if you want
ruff_hi: and I think that would make my dreylin life way too difficult for me
sooooo: can't be "harmful spying" if it benefits me
ruff_hi: got some EPs you wnat to send my way?
sooooo: oh yeah
sooooo: i see
ruff_hi: and I would need a spy in a city of yours
sooooo: sure, bad plan
ruff_hi: think best plan is to clear the pre-req and I will talk to Dreylin
sooooo: ok, dreylin loses absolutely nothing if you accept a gift from mh and you gift the tech to dreylin you were going to trade for mc
ruff_hi: yes - but that is your view of Dreylin
ruff_hi: he will react differently
sooooo: anyway, you decide to screw me over then PREPARE FOR WAR!
sooooo: just though I'd add that
ruff_hi: 1 sec
ruff_hi: http://ruffhi.atspace.com/Civ4-Other.html
ruff_hi: that is the best war declaration comic I've seen
sooooo: heh, that's pretty cool
sooooo: i'm not declaring war on you
ruff_hi: yeah - anyway - I will talk to Dreylin
sooooo: just throwing it out there when you consider what to do
ruff_hi: you clear the pre-req and we'll see where we stand
sooooo: k, cool
sooooo: will still abide by the NAP btw
ruff_hi: and declare war at the same time?
sooooo: heh
ruff_hi: now that I would like to see )
sooooo: ok, catch you later. hopefully with an eta for paper
ruff_hi: yeah - bye
ruff_hi: oh - don't forget to ask for the 40g

So - is this game starting to get interesting enough for you?

[Broker33]

So - is this game starting to get interesting enough for you?

Yep

[Ruff_Hi]

email to sooooo after our chat ...

Sooooo,

Got an email from Dreylin firming up his MC estimate. I should have it by T82 (he finishes it in 2 turns - T80, I request on T81 and can use the tech on T82 and request Machinery from you on T82 which you approve on T83). I think that is how it works - the turn order is hurting me here.

Obviously, you don't want to wait that long so I am prepared to front you Paper by 2 turns (ie you have paper in your hot little hands by T81) assuming you have cleared the pre-reqs for it by then.

If I remember correctly, our trade was Paper + 50b chit + 20g for Machinary. How about we waive the 20g for you getting Paper 2 turns earlier? You ok with that?

Finally - I resent your comments about me screwing you on this tech deal. My understanding is that Dreylin has been pushing mostly harmless for ages to try and get a MC deal in place, mainly because he didn't want to research a tech for which he gets nothing. I, too, have been trying to talk to mh about MC and decided to give that up as a lost cause when Dreylin informed me that he was self-researching it. If anyone is to blame for the paper trade being delayed, I suggest you look at mh. He could have traded MC to me and Dreylin ages ago and our Paper / Machinary deal could have been over and done.

Ruff

reading it now - didn't want to include the 'and dreylin' at the end so sent this follow up ...

actually, mh trading MC to just me would have cleared the Paper deal to you - no need to include Dreylin.

[Ruff_Hi]

email from sooooo

Hi Ruff,

I agree to the waiving of the 20g for an advance on paper. Thanks.

I also owe you an apology. I should not have threatened you with war in the chat. That was wrong and I am sorry. I will be obeying all NAPs and deals I have made.

sooooo

I got the gold waived which is nice and an apology of sorts - for the war threat - which I didn't actually think was worth the paper it was written on. I actually thought I handled that pretty well in our chat.

No apology for the comment about me screwing him - this could easily be the last tech that I trade with sooooo. It will certainly be the last one that I agree to with either of us missing the pre-req.

[Ruff_Hi]

• FF - Apostolic Palace [9]
  
• LQ - courthouse [1]
  
• DV - axe [12], worker [2] delayed
  
• BH - Barracks [1], Courthouse [16] delayed
  
• BS - Granary [18]
  
• AC - Granary [36]
  
• TN - Granary [6]
  
• Thing #1 - farm at BH
  
• Thing #2 - mine at BH
  
• Thing #3 - plantain on dye
  
• Thing #4 - road on dye
  
• Thing #5 - farm at BH
  
• Thing #6 - farm at FF
  
• Scout (Dead Man Walking) - exploring sooooo's North
  
• Scout (Live Man Walking) - heading back home
  
• Chariot XP=4 - heading back home
  
• Tech - Education [12]
  
• GP - 100% Scientist [1]
  
• Opponent Current Tech Research
  • athlete - not showing, prob just finished Feudalism
    
  • mostly harmless - not showing, prob just finished Civil Service
    
  • sooooo - not showing, prob just finished Machinery
    

I'll have a complete report up later this afternoon. However, I should be finished Education in 4 turns (T83).

I don't see how sooooo can finish it faster than 4 turns after getting a GS (due in 8 turns for him, but he can mm that down to 6 or 7). He currently doesn't have the gold to run for 4 turns max science (-41g per turn) so he will be saving gold while waiting for the paper trade to go through on T81. Expect him to complete Education on T86 or T87.

[Ruff_Hi]

Here is a game summary from my point of view ...

• Dreylin and I have formed a tech partnership that will probably develop into a war partnership too - war is coming, just a matter of time
  
• mh, athlete and sooooo have formed their partnership - obviously they haven't told us that, but their actions are pretty clear
  
• here is the current tech situation ...
  

• sooooo just finished machinery, mh just finished civil service, I think athlete just finished feudalism as none of them are showing any tech research (and I can see all of them)
  
• expect mh to trade CS to sooooo on T80
  
• expect sooooo to request paper from me on T80 so that he gets it on T81 and can start Education on T81
  
• sooooo can put together 130b at 100% tech for -40g per turn. He currently has 100g (+40ish per turn) so by T81 he will have 180g.
  
• sooooo's next GS is due in 8 turns, he can bring that down to 7 but hiring another scientist or revolting to Pacifism (but that will cost him 40g)
  
• so, sooooo should be in a position to lightbulb the balance of Edu on T86 at which point he can start Liberalism on T87
  
• sooooo will be sucking air ($ wise) by then and will need cash injections from his mates
  

We, on the other hand have the following road map ...

• I lightbulb Edu on T82
  
• Dreylin tells me that he can also pull about 130b per turn
  
• Dreylin should finish Philo on T83 and start Liberalism on T84
  
• Dreylin has plenty of gold - failed attempt at Hagia Sophia - and should have enough to finish Liberalism
  
• I can send him $ if he doesn't
  

So - DeTOG fully expects to win the race to Liberalism by at least 3 or 4 turns.

Here is a view of sooooo's future capital ... I think he is moving his capital to get the academy / Bureaucracy bump. Notice he is cottaging his capital, and farming all of this other cities.


Run down on my cities ...
Founders Folly ...


I've decided to build this city and slow build the AP. No one else as Theology and I shouldn't lose it. I cottaged the southern grassland tiles before working out that this city is food deprived - I'm farming the Northern grasslands. I hope to be able to actually work the spices one day.

Lal Qila


This is my science hub. I will not moving the capital as per sooooo. This city will build a couple of monestories and then some missionaries for the AP boost. Once I get stone hooked up, I will think about Stanford University. The GS I just popped was for an academy here but burning it on Edu is a much wiser move (lucky I planned for that!) so I will have to hire some scientists again to get that academy. I'll probably wait until I revolt to Pacifism.

Death Valley


This city is actually turning out much better than I thought it would. I didn't realize the food bump I would get from resources there. I have to farm the Northern floodplains so I am thinking of making this city my Draft City - not the ideal spot but one of the foodiest sites that I have. It can churn some missionaries while it waits too.

I was going to double whip that axe next turn to generate 2 axes (feeling a bit power light at the moment) but I am thinking of putting a turn into the monestory, then finishing the worker, lightbulbing Edu (population counts!) and then double the axes.

Block Head


My military pump. It will start building military next turn and I'll chop out a wooden courthouse, forge and Heroic Epic. I almost have all the grasslands farmed and then it is just a matter of growing.

Bandhani Saree


Nice that I have the dyes up and running - a nice little commerce bump there. Just need to cottage and mine some tiles and this city can chug along in the back ground. It can work FF's cottages while FF is in its hammer configuration.

Ailia Coila


A pretty good city for production. Moai Statues will go here. I am going to leave this disconnected so that it can pump out warriors to increase my happy cap. I also need to get a worker over there to chop that forest and mine those hills.

Tamil Nadu


This city was put down for the stone but lucked out by picking up some Bananas too. I am roading down there at the moment and will be quarrying soon (still trying to decide if I plantation the bananas first or quarry the stone.

So, that is my cities. I am break even at 60% tech (pretty good) so I can probably stand another 1 or 2 cities at the moment. I only have 3 more city sites in my dot map and I view 2 of them as fillers.

Feel free to provide comments or feed back on any of the above. I'll be back with a run down of the graphs and some comments later.

[darrelljs]

Thanks Ruff, that was a nice post. I haven't looked at your city specialization yet but I definitely plan on doing so.

What are you planning on taking with Liberalism? Would that change if you withheld Paper from sooooo and got some extra turns?

Darrell

[Ruff_Hi]

Dreylin and I were discussing Espionage - he was concerned that the bad guys could see his research and he didn't believe the numbers that I was quoting regarding being able to see their research.

Well, I dug into the code to find that there is a Espionage cost modifier that is roughly equal to ...

Code:

Esp Cost Mod = [2 x these + 1 x mine] / [1 x these + 2 x mine]

where these / mine is EPs generated by the target and by me over the length of the game (ie ignores EPs spent).

Now, because of my 2000 EP bomb, my formula is roughly ...

Code:

= [2 x 4 x 79 + 1 x (4 x 79 + 2000)] / [1 x 4 x 79 + 2 x (4 x 79 + 2000)]
= 60%

So, my missions only cost me about 60% of what they are costing the others. If someone runs a mission against me, then their cost is roughly 166%. Take a look at the EP cost - the number in brackets ...



This is a totally unexpected bonus of the EP bomb. You'll also notice that I am able to dig into sooooo's beaker generating ability (and expenses) pretty easy.

[Ruff_Hi]

What are you planning on taking with Liberalism? Would that change if you withheld Paper from sooooo and got some extra turns?

Dreylin and I have discussed it but we don't have a firm idea yet. I have tech ability while Dreylin clears Liberalism so we'll have to see what I can clear while he techs Liberalism. It would be nice if I could beeline an expensive tech so that we could take steel or something like that

I don't expect that we will be delaying Liberalism as we will only have a 2ish turn head start on Sooooo.

[Ruff_Hi]

Ok, here are the charts ... I've left off culture (boring) and EP (I've totally destroyed that chart with my bomb) ...

Score


A pretty tight bunch until about 1660BC when Dreylin started to take the lead (land). Sooooo pulled him back and is starting to gain momentum (wonders). I'm middle of the pack and mh and athlete are trailing.

GNP


This chart is totally messed up with people dialing tech rates up and down. This occurs because people have more science multipliers than gold multipliers. It is also distorted because it includes culture and I have tonnes of that from my early wonders. I probably doesn't even measure sooooo's beakers from specialists.

What a waste of time.

Production


Another chart that is up and down as people rearrange their city requirements. You can see that Athlete is really hurting here - his production is historically half of what the leaders are generating. As you would expect, sooooo has been pretty strong here.

Growth / Food


Dreylin has been the consistent leader here with sooooo and his farming starting to catch up. I had a bit of a slow start but I'm starting to catch up now. Athlete was competitive but has started to flatten out.

Power


The main feature here is the jumps with acquistion of critical techs (sooooo and athlete stand out). To be honest, I cannot see where sooooo is getting this power rating from - I am pretty sure that he has units in the North fog busting / killing barbarians. Remember, my vision into his civ is limited to what a unit can see from standing in his cities - sometimes 1 tile, sometimes 2 tiles (don't go and tell him this or he will hide his army in a tile I cannot see ).

I have been totally guilty of playing a SP game lately (flat power rating). Hence my start on the axe at DV and the double whip to build 2 axes in short order. Block Head starting to come online and build units will start to address this as will my fishing village.