Definitely looking forward to seeing where horses land too! Depending on where they are, it might be best to change nearly everything on Turn 45. For instance, if horses are in Muqa's first ring, then the Worker on the Silver should ROAD instead of mining! There are also some locations (where delaying production of the settler by a turn won't delay production of the city due to roading opportunities) where we probably shouldn't whip Borte until T46. I started to make a movement map like I did for copper, but ... there are just too many moving parts now. The map was a tie-dyed mess before I had covered half the possibilities!
Meanwhile, dtay is asking for a reload due to turn splitting in the tech thread. This can't possibly relate to us, can it? He can't be upset that we peacefully moved our warrior to the same tile as his Scout a billion miles from either of our territories, and the only thing we did near the border was move a worker onto our silver and start a mine. If he's planning to attack us, first of all he can't have an Impi in range yet (it would have shown up on the power graph by now) and second of all he'd want the second half of the turn split, and could just take it. So it's got to be his nothern neighbor ... maybe Couerva in a Settler race? (They each planted their third cities this turn.)
If so, it's a question of when or if Couerva knew he was in a Settler race. If he could see dtay's settler (or even a guard unit or worker) or vice-versa after he played turn 43, then yeah, a reload is warranted. If they didn't know they were in a race until turn 44, no matter when, then in my view dtay doesn't have any special right to the first half of the turn timer just because he played first on turn 43. He has the right to not be double-moved when his opponent gains advantage thereby, but if Couerva had no new information to act on by EoT43, he gained no advantage by double-moving to plant his city; whatever advantage he gained came from playing early in the timer this turn, and I think that's a good thing. (There are already too many advantages to playing late.) The exception would be someone who plays late one turn (especially if they play last and roll the turn) in order to be sure of playing early (first) the next turn and e.g. win a possible settling race. I don't see this happening with Couerva here though; GJ was the one who rolled the turn, and Couerva left more than four hours between playing T43 and T44.
I approve of the way dtay handled this though, asking lurkers to determine if a reload was needed, and playing the turn regardless so that he doesn't slow the game down too much in case they rule against him....
Either way, from a Mongolian perspective, I wouldn't at all mind seeing dtay in a turn split with the Zulus' northern neighbor, and with bad blood between their civs!
(June 10th, 2017, 14:33)RefSteel Wrote: Definitely looking forward to seeing where horses land too! Depending on where they are, it might be best to change nearly everything on Turn 45. For instance, if horses are in Muqa's first ring, then the Worker on the Silver should ROAD instead of mining! There are also some locations (where delaying production of the settler by a turn won't delay production of the city due to roading opportunities) where we probably shouldn't whip Borte until T46. I started to make a movement map like I did for copper, but ... there are just too many moving parts now. The map was a tie-dyed mess before I had covered half the possibilities!
Meanwhile, dtay is asking for a reload due to turn splitting in the tech thread. This can't possibly relate to us, can it? So it's got to be his nothern neighbor ... maybe Couerva in a Settler race? (They each planted their third cities this turn.)
Either way, from a Mongolian perspective, I wouldn't at all mind seeing dtay in a turn split with the Zulus' northern neighbor, and with bad blood between their civs!
I just logged in. This is the current situation. I can`t possibly see what we`ve done wrong here. Dtay`s scout continued SW to get a look of Sparta. Hopefully, he`s in a settling race with someone. We`ll see what the verdict of the lurkers will be. I wouldn`t mind dtay losing that race actually, but it doesn`t affect us much right now.
I`ll think carefully before moving the workers on turn 45, when we get to know where the horses are. Are there any other locations that would make a road instead of building a mine on that silver worthwhile?
(June 10th, 2017, 15:29)JR4 Wrote: I just logged in. This is the current situation. I can`t possibly see what we`ve done wrong here.
I agree. One note: It doesn't hurt anything here since we could just use Krill's login save if needed, and dtay was talking about "to the beginning of the turn" which would mean GJ's login save in theory, but I should have mentioned it anyway, so for future reference: When a reload is possible, ideally no one should log in, so that the game admin has the option to reload to many different points in the turn. (The game auto-saves a separate file when each player logs in or out, overwriting that player's previous "login" or "logout" save.)
Quote:Are there any other locations that would make a road instead of building a mine on that silver worthwhile?
None. That one only applies because the plan would be for the worker from the sheep to move directly to the horses at Muqa and pasture on the same turn, then be joined by the worker from the silver T47, completing the pasture together, and then they'd both be able to move back to the silver and finish the mine with silver thereby still hooked T49 and one of the workers free to go elsewhere on that turn. (Also, if the horses are somehow on that forested plains tile, the silver worker should go ahead and keep mining anyway, I believe. I shouldn't just assume all the horses will be on bare tiles, though the closest one ought to be.)
I thought about it a bit more, and I decided/realized it actually might not even matter whether Couerva's move last turn revealed information about a settling race. It also looks like I was wrong about Carthage being the other player. New theory: dtay's other neighbor is CML, and his other neighbor is Krill! ... Wait a minute.
... the landform might be weirder than I supposed (there are some possibilities) but if it's in the form I imagined, that would mean CML is southeast of us (more south than east) across the sea, and Krill's start was ~due east of us. (I have no idea if he moved northeast or southwest though even if all this is true).
Of course, that could be wrong as well. If it's true, Krill probably now believes dtay's "southern" neighbor is GJ!
In any case, my thoughts on the propriety of a reload in a completely imaginary dtay-Couerva settling race are spoilered below:
1) I was wrong about dtay doing the right thing given that he wanted a reload. If the moves he made in playing the turn gave him any new information that he would not have had if he had played as he wished in the "correct" order (even if the new information is just "there are no barbs in sight from the borders of the closer city I founded instead of the one Couerva obviated") there should be no reload regardless of the below. Likewise if dtay attacked anything (even a wolf) on his turn as he actually played it, unless he got exclusively unexpectedly good results.
2) When Couerva founded his city, did its borders teleport or any of dtay's units or otherwise affect them - e.g. by cutting them off on the wrong side of a choke point so that they could not return toward home as dtay intended without declaring war? If so, then there should be a reload and dtay should be permitted to play before Couerva, so long as any of his moves that affect other areas are the same.
3) If dtay had played after Couerva last turn, would he have seen Couerva's settler (or other units) in position? If he did, could he have done something about the founding of Couerva's city last turn, after Couerva's moves? Would he have done so, on the basis of the information he would have had then? If the answers to all three of these questions are yes, then there should be a reload (to before Couerva's moves on this turn) and dtay should play before Couerva.
4) If dtay could not have done anything about Couerva's settler until this turn, there should not be a reload, even though Couerva double-moved him to found the city - because this would mean Couerva got no actual advantage from double-moving; he merely got an advantage from playing first in the turn order. Now, dtay may argue that because he played last turn first, he should have had the option to play first in the turn order - but this is not correct! No one has any right to playing first or last: Only to be safe from double moves, including safe from other players gaining non-combat advantages from double moves. Then dtay could argue that Couerva's double move did give him an advantage by granting him the early part of the turn and therefore the first chance to plant his city. This would be a reasonable argument except that Couerva has consistently played nearly every turn earlier than dtay, with the exception of turns like last turn when dtay double-moved him by playing last of all the turn before and then immediately upon the turn rolling. Thus, the advantage of moving first in turn order was only dtay's for Couerva to take (with a double move) because dtay had double-moved Couerva the turn before. Because Couerva has been consistently playing before dtay, and because playing last-and-then-first is only allowed at all as a way to maintain turn pace, and should never give a player an in-game advantage if it can be avoided, Couerva has more right to the first half of the turn split than dtay does, so long as the double-move itself does not directly interfere with dtay's units or cities.
Of course, when war eventually breaks out, no matter between whom, everyone will want the last half of the turn split, and even though it's easy to settle, that is going to be annoying.
So it looks like we'll have to wait for Old Harry or someone to reload the save for dtay and CML. (This surely confirms at least that CML is dtay's other land neighbor.) Then we'll have to replay turn 44 (playing exactly the way we did the first time of course, but you knew that) afterward. A bit disappointing, what with the revelation of horses due next turn, but that's the way it goes!
An in-game thing you mentioned: Yeah, only Archers and Chariots can be dry-whipped for 2 pop (at normal/quick speed) in RTR. We'll be able to 1-whip a 3-xp axe at Muqa soon if we need to though, and there'll be a window when we can 2-pop whip a 3-xp spear for a need as well. I just hope none of that is necessary. (The axe should complete naturally on turn 53 if all goes to plan, and Borte may get a spare 0-xp axe moderately soon as well....) We'll eventually need sentries to give us warning of incoming threats (and spawnbust barbs; GJ's warrior is doing something like that for Sparta) but especially with dtay possibly occupied in the north, we should be okay for now.
I also want to say again: It's been terrific following along with you so far this game! All the pictures and discussion (and putting up with my rambling) every turn have made dedlurking a real pleasure, and your gameplay has been exceptional - not only in terms of your selection and execution of sometimes-extremely-intricate plans and all your in-the-moment judgment calls (like whether to go after dtay's scout when the opportunity arose, to take one critical example) but also in terms of your part in the turn pace (if more of the other players kept up with the likes of you and Dark Savant, we could be rivaling the Civ6 PbeM 2 crowd for turns per week!) and good sportsmanship - like making sure not to double-move dtay the one time it might have mattered so far.
I don't mean this to be in contrast to anybody else; I know some players have had technical issues to deal with, and the turn pace actually started improving just as everything started getting more complex, hopefully because of some of those getting worked out - and as Mardoc pointed out in the tech thread, things like the double-move rules were left ... uh ... slightly unclear by the game's brief set-up description. The point is just that I've been enjoying this game immensely so far, and I'm well aware that this is largely thanks to you!
(June 10th, 2017, 15:52)RefSteel Wrote: When a reload is possible, ideally no one should log in, so that the game admin has the option to reload to many different points in the turn. (The game auto-saves a separate file when each player logs in or out, overwriting that player's previous "login" or "logout" save.)
Oh, that`s the way it works. I`ll keep that in mind. I hope we avoid more reloads, as they just seem to take forever to resolve. The "don`t be a jerk" rule is a funny one. I know very well what it means in a chess setting: e.g. "Don`t disturb the other player", "When in time trouble, place your pieces clearly inside the tile you want to move to", and so on.. In MP civ it`s a bit more complicated it seems.
Dtay`s other neighbor is CML. I don`t think dtay is too unhappy about that. If CML also borders Krill, he should be very careful about where he builds his pyramids! (I`m assuming he`s the favorite to land them right now).
I`m glad you`re enjoying the ride so far! I`m always looking forwards to playing the turns. Things are about to get even more interesting, as the first real wars can`t be that far away.
Yeah; "don't be a jerk" uses that phrasing for purely historical reasons. We originally had long, complex sets of double-move rules, but it was impossible to make a rule that was simultaneously completely fair and good for turn pace - and when we had comprehensive rules, players would inevitably push them to the limits for advantage. So "don't be a jerk" really means "don't be a rules lawyer; err on the side of fairness to your opponent." But somewhere along the line the whole idea of the rule ("Don't move twice in between your opponent's turns when doing so will give you an advantage") got left out as just assumed, leading to the confusion. (Especially confusing for "ladder"-style MP vets, who are used to games where double-moves are expected!)
Also ... on the first playthrough, either dtay appeared to plant a new city and whip an existing one. On the replay, he obviously played differently since CML hadn't made the double-move: This time, he neither founded the city nor whipped, apparently! (Or I guess he did both so quickly that Civstats missed it happening? I wouldn't have thought that possible, but dtay fooled civstats before when he founded his first city.)
Really excited to see how next turn goes. Just three teams left to play! [EDIT: And I apparently can't read Civstats or something. But hey - hopefully by Europe's morning, we'll have a new turn to play!]
And finally we discover Animal Husbandry. The first thing I did was, of course, to check for horses. Well, these horses were certainly not where I wanted them to be.
And then I checked the rest of the map. Yes! That`s a lot better. The worker standing on the cow tile was able to finish our part-built road SE of Borte. Both workers are ready to help with the pasture next turn. I love it when a plan comes together like that. Borte was whipped in order to get out the next settler asap. We`ll settle Toregene on turn 47. That spot 3 E of Borte looks like a good city site now, as we can share a lot of good tiles with the capital, including the horses. Not to mention the furs.
Our scouting warrior continued NW towards Sparta. I don`t think GJ will try to attack us, but who knows?
And the situation looks terrific! All those horses are quite exciting, and I agree: It's beautiful when a plan comes together this way. Well played! Is Toregene going E of the horses then? If you wanted, with horses workable by Borte, we could really plant our next city south of the furs (so it borrows the rice and Borte takes the horses) or even at the corn/pigs location (we'd have to shuffle the warriors to make sure it was safe, and it would be a little longer before it could work an improved tile, but the option is there). I can definitely see the attraction in getting a city down that can share both those tiles plust the three will-be cottages though.
I agree that GJ is very unlikely to attack us. (VERY!) If he's worried, he might move his warrior 1S to a different hill; attacking would be a poor move, and GJ doesn't make many of those.
Also, in international news...
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So.
I was looking at Civstats, and ... dtay lost two points, right after the turn rolled.
He wasn't logged in - only Gavagai was, and Gav's nowhere nearby (as far as I can tell) and wouldn't have double-moved him that way. It wasn't starvation or anything; that would have shown up at the same time as his score increase at the start of the turn and just made it a couple points less. So there's only one thing I can think of that could have caused it.
After the turn rolled and everyone's research and growth and production and everything was completed ... I ... think ... the barbs managed to take or raze a size-1 Zulu city!
