Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[kjn]

My thoughts on the land split

We have two conflicting interests:

a. The need to finish the war quickly
b. The desire for a reasonably fair land split (to not alienate WPC too much)

To us (a) is more important than (b), due to war weariness, existing German culture, conquest unhappiness, and NAP deadlines. So if WPC can't get a reasonable force in place to take a city, and we can take it, then we will do so.

On the other hand, if we both end up with units outside a city in the west and north, then we can help them take it, but if they don't have any units ready then we are simply going to take the city that turn.

Also, we have talked about razing Wien, Wanzleben, and Wolfratshausen due to various reasons. Any other German cities that should get that treatment? I can't say I'm that impressed with the German dotmap - it manages to be cramped in places and wastes tiles in other.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Well I got good news and bad news.

Hi Scooter.

Yep, that works for us. In fact, most of our folks wanted a simultaneous attack, and I had to do some arm-twisting to get them to agree to going first. So the team will pleased. Turn 150 it is.

What about the agreed-to division of land? Does this work for you? My concern here is that we actually end up 'competing' against each other to claim more land - sort of like the Russians and Allies in the closing daysof WWII in Europe.

Also, are you number one in soldiers? We are now at #2.

Cheers! Beta

Glad he happily backed off the staggered attack plan. Not so thrilled that they're pushing the division of land issue. I need to think about how to respond to this.

Dear Beta,

See you in Berlin.

--RB

[mostly_harmless]

Quick thought:
We agree to their proposed land split (or something very similar). However, if we have managed to take all the cities assigned to us and WPC has not reached their objectives, we are free to "help" out and take WPC assigned cities. Same rule would work the other way around as well, to be fair.

mh

[Sullla]

I don't think that we should agree to any land split whatsoever. Mention that the game rules don't allow gifting of cities between teams, and we'll both try to conquer the Germans as quickly as possible. To the victors go the spoils.

I honestly think it's 50/50 odds whether WPC captures even a single German city. They've shown extremely little skill thus far, and their last invasion got absolutely cleaned up after the initial surprise factor wore off. I would not agree to give them anything before the war begins. If we promise them anything substantial now, we'll regret it later.

EDIT: Quick example of what I mean, they didn't even know that we were the #1 team in Power rating. They are totally clueless.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I don't think that we should agree to any land split whatsoever. Mention that the game rules don't allow gifting of cities between teams, and we'll both try to conquer the Germans as quickly as possible. To the victors go the spoils.

I honestly think it's 50/50 odds whether WPC captures even a single German city. They've shown extremely little skill thus far, and their last invasion got absolutely cleaned up after the initial surprise factor wore off. I would not agree to give them anything before the war begins. If we promise them anything substantial now, we'll regret it later.

EDIT: Quick example of what I mean, they didn't even know that we were the #1 team in Power rating. They are totally clueless.

Pretty much all of this. We have the muscle to get what we want. If they don't, we'll clean up their share of the pie too. No need to over think the diplo ramifications here. Might makes right. We'll take what we want from the Germans. The entire pie is going to be eaten. If WPC wants to eat, they better bring their own forks and plates. If they don't have enough, we've got plenty of our own and can digest the whole thing if it comes down to it.

[kalin]

I agree with Sullla to not agree to a land split, but let's not make false promises. I think we should be careful because it would be good to keep WPC on friendly terms. It's not the end of the world if they hate us after this, but we should try to avoid that.

I think we should go back and forth a bit without committing to anything, then tell them the truth: that in reality we need to finish the war quickly and that each of us should grab whatever they can. We probably don't want to steal a city that they could capture but we won't gift (not even legal) or go out of our way to help them capture cities.

Kalin

[Twinkletoes89]

Could we not agree to the land split plus Wismar but add in that this is under the impression of our stacks working independently to achieve this split. We don't directly help them take their cities, nor they ours.

We could add in a condition that if they need our assistance to take their allotted lands, we should get something extra in return for that effort. Possibly suggest a time limit for the war to be concluded by and if one party hasn't taken their allotted lands by then, all bets are off to ensure a quick elimination.

I'm basically trying to suggest a way where we agree on the split, all things being equal. But if they turn out not to be, it should be reworked to reflect that rather than someone get what they don't deserve

[SevenSpirits]

I think some agreement like this would get us what we want while offering to WPC things we are willing to offer. Part-draft follows:


We are OK with that division in principle, with the caveat that it can only happen if you earn your part through combat. I don't think it would be fair for one of us to get half the spoils while contributing much less to the war effort, and perhaps more importantly, city gifting isn't allowed in this game.

Wars are a big pain and we will be aiming to defeat the germans as soon as possible. But we can promise a few things if you do the same for us:
1) We won't race you for the cities in your half of the land split.
2) We will prioritize capture of cities in our half over cities in your half.
3) We will be sincerely rooting for your speedy progress and success.
4) After the war, we will consider seriously any complaints you have about fairness, and be willing to provide fair compensation in the form of gold, units, and/or resources.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Could we not agree to the land split plus Wismar but add in that this is under the impression of our stacks working independently to achieve this split. We don't directly help them take their cities, nor they ours.

We could add in a condition that if they need our assistance to take their allotted lands, we should get something extra in return for that effort. Possibly suggest a time limit for the war to be concluded by and if one party hasn't taken their allotted lands by then, all bets are off to ensure a quick elimination.

I'm basically trying to suggest a way where we agree on the split, all things being equal. But if they turn out not to be, it should be reworked to reflect that rather than someone get what they don't deserve

This is an awful lot of hoops to jump through to get to the ultimate point, which is that things are not inherently equal here. We have made a much greater investment in hammers and beakers, though not in percentage terms. So what? Take what you can take before it is all gone. Why make it harder than this? We have good reasons to keep what we can capture, as does WPC. We have a strong interest in seeing the war prosecuted as quickly as possible. Not just to beat WPC to cities, but to prepare for the inevitable dogpile. Also, to get rid of motherland unhappiness, brothers of the faith, etc. We won't go out of our way to capture cities in their theater of the war so long as they progress swiftly enough so as to not inhibit our ability to wage an effective campaign. Any guarantees beyond this are counterproductive to our team's interests.

--

Edit: I crossposted with Seven. I agree on your first three points but not on the last. It is a nice thing to throw out to WPC to help ease their worries about the fundamental fairness of how this should (from their perspective) turn out. However, one could just as easily tell them that us taking the city from them due to their slow progress is just compensation to us for having to go beyond our expected level of activity in fighting the German team. We had to use more units/spend more time whipping/drafting/turns in war weariness that cost our civ, and the city/cities that we took from your sphere will be just compensation for our additional use of material and resources. Under no circumstances should they feel entitled to more than they are able to carve out of the Germans on the battlefield. A meeting in Berlin (meet me in the middle) seems fairest and the most expedient way to handle this. But, if we want to throw them a sop in the meantime, so be it, so long as we don't actually pay gold/units/whatever.

UNLESS we think that the cost is so minimal that it is worth the diplomatic benefit. I doubt that will be the case, though, as they'll be close to spent and very vulnerable when this is over. We'll have spent some, but fewer, resources, and will be comparatively stronger then vs. WPC than we are now, and their army would be vulnerable due to the absence of cultural control. What's to stop us from marching up and smashing their army? They would do well to just take what table scraps they can get and whatever we're willing to toss to them and stay quiet about it. The little guys shouldn't seek out the ire of the giant.

[zakalwe]

I think that's a very good starting point, Seven. I really like the tone in your draft. It sounds sincere.