(April 28th, 2015, 09:42)Kragroth Wrote: (spoilered for size)
I think all we need is a majority. We have been more than fair, more than accomodating, and more than patient.
1. Northstar caused a majority of delays. He did not improve.
2. Northstar was given a 1 week test to return FFA saves within 24 hours. He failed.
3. Northstar was instructed to work with Old Lion. He refused/ delayed
4. Northstar was reminded to work with Old Lion. He refused / delayed
5. Northstar was reminded a second time to work with Old Lion. He refused / delayed
6. Northstar holds save for 48 hours. Password is cracked and sent to Old Lion.
7. Lion plays two saves in a timely manner.
8. Northstar is late to his self professed play window again and demands replays.
9. Northstar is given final warning not to complain and to continue playing saves.
10. Northstar disregards final warning and changes play window again.
Again. We have been more than fair and more than patient. Northstar continually disrespects other players, does not listen, and does not improve. I do not like that we have reached this point, but we have reached it. I see no reason to end or restart this game. It should be continued in great haste to reach 1 turn per day which is only possible without Northstar.
I will continue to send saves to Old Lion and Northstar until we have majority agreement to send saves only to Old Lion.
I completely agree, but we still need unanimity. Nobody has special authority over a pbem; it's a collaborative effort. Often one person will take a leadership role during setup just to keep things focused, but once it is ongoing we should have unanimous consensus for major decisions.
Saruman, I have no confidence that NS will ever be a reliable turnplayer. If he can prove me wrong then so be it, but he has had the opportunity and instead his antics have poisoned this pbem. He will never be content, and he will never meet his commitments. I don't know where his new timeslot falls, but it sounds like it doesn't fit at all between Kragoth and Tasunke where he is positioned.
Would I be okay with a (reliable!) 48 hour cycle on the turns? Honestly, yes. I've seen that happen later on in some games and with the right players it can be worthwhile to accommodate. But we're on turn 22. The turns take 2 minutes to play, plus maybe 2-3 minutes of planning for the future. The delays are only going to get worse as the turns become more complex. Northstar has a toxic attitude. Why would we resign ourselves to a 72-hour average turn cycle for such a person?
This is why I want to end it if the Northstar situation isn't solved. PBEMs are a renewable resource. If we end this one, I can join another. As long as this one is going on I will need to devote time and mental energy to it.
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FFH-20: Jonas Endain of the Clan of Embers
EITB Pitboss 1: Clan/Elohim/Calabim with Mardoc and Thoth
Kragroth, Ellmist, stop blaming me for everything that goes wrong. It's your own altitude that's toxic- I've only demanded fair treatment, and reasonable concessions (i.e. a minor nerf to the other players after you hacked my password and Old Lion botched both turns) when you wronged me. Kragroth has consistently been on my case even where things were not my fault- I remember distinctly him coming after me when my duel with Mardoc was slow to start, for instance... (even though at the time I was waiting on Mardoc to gen the map- and had already agreed on settings- thus NOT my fault...)
I said it before, the two new jobs actually make my play-window *more* reliable to a certain extent, as it puts me on a schedule that occludes a lot of other real life obligations that would normally take precedence over this PBEM (like taking extra hospital volunteer shifts). As does having dropped my other PBEM games recently. Speaking of which, where's the save? I sent it last night, and I'm ready to play another one now (during my 9:30-11 PM play window, which is where it will remain for weekdays for the forseeable future- with a little more flexibility on weekends...) but I don't have the save...
I asked for Tasunke not to send on the save I sent him until some sort of consensus was reached on the minor penalty I'm asking you guys to pay to your civs to even the balance (if you all do it, it won't imbalance the game at all- we can discuss if one of you thinks the same penalty would unduly harm him/her and come up with an alternative... The point is to penalize everybody equally so you guys gain less of an advantage from having hacked my save, but nobody is hurt more than others...) so maybe he still has it? We're still waiting on Tasunke's decision on the compromise it seems- if he agrees we have majority in favor and everybody should do it (on a decision this minor, majority should rule). If he disagrees it fails and we're back to disagreeing over what to do...
EDIT: Ok, it seems Tasunke still has the save (and has for the past 21 hours). It seems he's still making up his mind about what to do here... I'm ready to play if he gets it to me in the next 50 minutes- otherwise I'll have to hope this is all resolved by tomorrow's play window...
(April 28th, 2015, 22:26)Northstar1989 Wrote: Thanks! Hopefully it gets to me in the next 30 minutes so I can pass another turn on...
Compromise or no compromise? You're the tiebreaker (2 for, 2 against), and I expect everybody to honor your decision...
Regards,
Northstar
Received and sent the save but its a bit late. Did you see my post North? You need to seriously commit to a steady schedule or allow Old Lion to play your turn when he gets it and collaborate with him instead of telling him what to do. Also, in score rankings you are first. Just pointing out that maybe you don't need to be so concerned about getting ppl to handicap themselves.
(April 28th, 2015, 22:56)Saruman the Foolish Wrote: Received and sent the save but its a bit late. Did you see my post North? You need to seriously commit to a steady schedule or allow Old Lion to play your turn when he gets it and collaborate with him instead of telling him what to do.
If I cant trust Old Lion to even handle simple early-game turns with obvious optimal strategies, I'm not sure I can trust him to collaborate later on... I'll try and work with him to teach him what little I know (which isn't much)- but maybe one of you would be better-suited to helping him improve his strategic decision-making? In the meantime, if there's a delay, just be patient... There shouldn't be nearly as many long delays now that I've dropped by other games, but now and then a missed turn *will* happen (which necessarily means a 24-hour hold as my play-windows are only every 24 hours)
(April 28th, 2015, 22:56)Saruman the Foolish Wrote: Also, in score rankings you are first. Just pointing out that maybe you don't need to be so concerned about getting ppl to handicap themselves.
Tell that to Q. And Bob. They constantly told me (in my other games) I'm a lousy, horrible player with no sense of strategy and no idea what I'm talking about. And Kragroth backed them up in that (without participating himself- but tacitly agreeing at many times). Either they're right or they're wrong- you guys can't have it both ways.
Trust me when I said I suffered a MAJOR setback by Old Lion's two botched turns. *Any* player would rightly be concerned about his chances of victory considering how optimally you guys play most of the time... I still want a small handicap on you guys (not nearly as large as the handicap that was involuntarily forced upon me by Old Lion playing the save)
Skill level is irrelevant. If Sirian is playing in a game with Kuro, Sirian is not going to handicap himself because of it. Nor will the mapmaker. It's irrelevant.
And sure, setbacks hit, and they suck. But this is FFH! You won't win or lose because of something minor like slightly-bad (or even very-bad - such as, say, moving a settler in the wrong direction costing you 4t on using/developing your second city, as an example for the sorta level I'm talking about here) micro - it'll have an effect, sure, but compared to opponent skill, neighbor skill, your civ/leader choices, whether your neighbor settles towards or away from you and so on and so on, it's negligible. Imperfect micro on that scale can cost you the game in BTS, perhaps, but not in FFH. Everything's turned up another notch - who cares if you've wasted some time on FoL when you needed Education, if your Doviello opponent pops BW from a hut? Who cares if your second city was a turn late, if you're Luchuirp on a Rainforest map? Who cares if you win Drama, if Hyborem pops up outside your cities?
(The above are all theoretical.)
Should the other players handicap themselves? That's an entirely separate question, and not one I'll engage with. But there's no way they should feel more or less compelled to do so because of your or their skill level.
/staying out of this
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
My two cents :
I cannot be an intermittent replacement for Northstar.
1/ I will make decision that will be different from his, except if he sends detailled instructions every turn (which sounds implausible), and make a drama every time.
2/I have a feeling that every time something bad happens, even if my skill is not involved, there will be some haggling. If my scout ends next to a polar bear or a lair I choose to pop pops horrors, I dont replay, I live with it, so it will happen.
(sorry Northstar, but there is a solid forum documentation backing this view)
I can still play that way but from what I understand it won't fly. Northstar seems to believe bad luck is undue or cheaty.
Anyway, I'm willing to make everybody happy. I'm not here to steal the pbem from Northstar. I just don't believe it is possible to make everybody happy here.
Btw, I'm kind of out of games. anybody fancy a duel ?
(in the duel tournament, I'm supposed to play against :
- Tasunke.
- Northstar. an easy victory for him for sure)
(April 29th, 2015, 02:16)Old_Lion Wrote: My two cents :
I cannot be an intermittent replacement for Northstar.
1/ I will make decision that will be different from his, except if he sends detailled instructions every turn (which sounds implausible), and make a drama every time.
2/I have a feeling that every time something bad happens, even if my skill is not involved, there will be some haggling. If my scout ends next to a polar bear or a lair I choose to pop pops horrors, I dont replay, I live with it, so it will happen.
(sorry Northstar, but there is a solid forum documentation backing this view)
I can still play that way but from what I understand it won't fly. Northstar seems to believe bad luck is undue or cheaty.
Anyway, I'm willing to make everybody happy. I'm not here to steal the pbem from Northstar. I just don't believe it is possible to make everybody happy here.
Btw, I'm kind of out of games. anybody fancy a duel ?
(in the duel tournament, I'm supposed to play against :
- Tasunke.
- Northstar. an easy victory for him for sure)
or warn me if a new PBEM game starts.
I agree. I am sorry you got pulled into this, since it seems clear at this point that Kragoth's attempted compromise is unlikely to work.
I am willing to play a pbem with you, if you like. We can either duel against each other or play on a team vs AIs or whatever you want. I very much doubt that your skill level is as bad as you seem to think it is, but the fact that you are humble about it convinces me that you can very easily improve. If we do the same-team thing, I will do whatever I can to help you improve when I see an opportunity.
Active in:
FFH-20: Jonas Endain of the Clan of Embers
EITB Pitboss 1: Clan/Elohim/Calabim with Mardoc and Thoth
Northstar, whether you believe it or not I genuinely do want to be fair to you. I've just used the tracker info to compile a history of the time that you've had the save, and here are my results:
Turn #
NS receives
NS sends
NS possession time
1
Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 22:37
Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 01:16
2.65
2
Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 21:32
Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 02:53
5.35
3
Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 21:07
Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 22:47
25.667
4
Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 21:50
Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 17:12
67.367
5
Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 16:32
Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 21:59
5.45
6
Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 21:22
Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:12
13.833
7
Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 23:08
Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 16:52
41.733
8
Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 16:34
Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 23:41
7.117
9
Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 17:22
Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 16:07
22.75
10
Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 16:34
Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 04:44
12.167
11
Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 21:46
Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 13:16
15.5
12
Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 16:29
Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 21:40
29.183
13
Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 22:41
Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 02:04
51.383
14
Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 22:42
Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 21:37
22.917
15
Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 06:43
Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 17:23
34.667
16
Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 21:07
Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 23:32
2.417
17
Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 04:37
Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 00:26
43.817
18
Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 06:06
Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 01:55
19.817
19
Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 20:09
Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 21:47
1.633
20
Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 22:17
Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 16:11
65.9
Notes:
All send/receive times are using my timezone according to gmail (I believe it's UTC-6). All durations have been converted to decimal for math purposes. For example, 2 hours and 45 minutes = 2.750
T0
The tracker hadn't been fully set up yet. We didn't start using it until turn 1, so that's where I'm starting the table.
T9
He sent this turn a second time four hours later (Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 20:11). I'm not sure why this was, but I'm giving him credit for the earlier time here.
T10
This one was also sent twice. (Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 14:43) "Genned the save again per request! Confirm it's working this time!" I'm also giving him credit for the earlier time here.
T11
There was some confusion here due to me (Ellimist) renaming the game(Kragoth initially sent the wrong one). I'm only counting the time that Northstar had the valid save, and ignoring the earlier save he received that was incorrect.
T20
This was the first turn taken by Old Lion. He sent it at (Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 08:43) at Kragoth's request. The time recorded here is when Northstar sent his version to Tasunke.
Also, a general note. I did all the calculations here manually--by hand and with a calculator. I tried to be thorough and double/triple check but if any error exists with either the data or the calculations, point it out and I will correct.
You've had the turn in your possession for 491 hours and 19 minutes for the first 20 turns. That averages to 24 hours and 34 minutes per turn. (The true average is possibly even a little higher since I've interpreted the data in the most generous way for turns 9 and 10.)
It's true that you haven't been the only one slowing the game down, but you've definitely been the worst about it. PYFT problems tend to be contagious as well, as players lose both their sense of urgency and the ability to easily fit the game into their daily routine. It would have been entirely fair to hold you accountable for some of the delays caused by other players.
So. That's the hard data.
I am only willing to continue without replacing you under the following non-negotiable conditions:
If you have a play window that fits between Kragoth's declared window and Tasunke's declared window.
If you can guarantee that there will be no more turnpace problems, that you will reliably and promptly play any turns that arrive during or before your declared window.
If you receive a turn at an inconvenient time(outside of your window), you will reliably play the turn and send it onward at your next available opportunity. There should be no more delays over 24 hours.
You should start checking the tracker website to verify that the save was passed on properly after you send it. This is one of the intended purposes of the tool, and something that should be a habit to help prevent "oops" delays.
If, for some reason, you are unable to play a turn in a timely manner, you will promptly notify us of the delay either in this thread or by email. This should be a very rare event.
If you foresee that you will have trouble meeting these obligations alone, you will work with a teammate to make sure that they are nonetheless met. It can be (but does not have to be) Old Lion; it can be anyone who is willing to work with you but I will insist that you treat both Old Lion and others with genuine respect and courteousness. I personally would not mind if a spoiled general lurker volunteers for this role.
There will be an end to the drama. You have exhausted my supply of patience. If you think something is unfair, convince your teammate or a lurker to bring it to our attention. At the least, Kragoth and I are very unlikely to give it a fair hearing if you present more complaints in this thread. If a genuine injustice has occurred, I would very much prefer to hear about it from someone else because it will be easier for me to remain objective and fair about it.
You will not hold the turn hostage in an attempt to pressure us.
I am aware that I do not speak for everyone. I ask that Tasunke, Saruman, and Kragoth all voice their opinion on these conditions and indicate whether they support them or not.
I refuse to do anything idiotic such as deliberately wasting production, but if you can guarantee these conditions, I personally do not mind going back to whichever turn you claim had errors occur. (Tasunke, Saruman, and Kragoth would also have to agree to rewind.)
Make no mistake, Northstar, at this point you have successfully squandered the goodwill I initially had for you. Kragoth and some others have surely formed a negative opinion about you as well. It's not only your turn pace, but also your twisted sense of sportsmanship that involves constantly accusing others of foul play. If you attempted to start or join another pbem right now, I very much doubt you would find many people willing to play with you.
I do not think you meant to end up here. You are very good at reporting your games and seem to have a higher-than-average level of enthusiasm for them. I believe you have considerable room for improvement, but do not consider you a bad player and your skill level does not contribute to my low opinion of you. It seems like you are interested in continuing to play pbems at RB, so I am giving you a chance to earn back some goodwill. If you are willing to reform and adhere to the conditions that I listed above, I am willing to forgive and forget. I am willing to give you a chance to make a second "first impression" now that you are (hopefully) aware of what is and is not acceptable. I am hopeful that you will succeed.
If you do not agree with my conditions, then I am simply not interested in playing with you. This decision was not made lightly, but so far you have sucked all the enjoyment out of this game for me. I have plenty of stress to deal with right now without your contributions. Either you will shape up or I am done with you.
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FFH-20: Jonas Endain of the Clan of Embers
EITB Pitboss 1: Clan/Elohim/Calabim with Mardoc and Thoth
