Test games played

[Nelphine]

I'm trying the dwarf band wagon. Even trying rich. No adamantium on my home continent (fair land size, home continent fits 9 cities, and it had 4 neutrals.. Including 2 draconian. Waiting till my magic can defeat those...)


I somehow thought golems required armorers guild. Fighters guild may be too early considering human ability to use them - and the raw stats. Compare to any other fighter guild unit, and the raw stats, even ignoring magic immunity, are simply WAY higher on golems.

I'd definitely make golems require an armorer's guild.

[Seravy]

The total cost of everything required adds up to an Armorer's Guild - you need Mechanicians Guild which needs University and Builder's Hall and Miner's Guild. Sure, you get more profits from these than the AG which makes it quite a lot better, but you don't get it earlier. And considering how situational Golem is (yes it was good for a while but as soon as I found enemies with armor piercing it became obsolete), that's probably needed.

[Nelphine]

How many enemies have armor piercing? That is situational in itself. I don't think there are any on Myrror? (Pikemen, Paladins, Elven Lords, Gryphons, Naga?)

And compare to Paladins (and I don't think High Men even get another unit at Armorer's Guild, unlike Hammerhands).

Magic Immunity is simply FANTASTIC. The raw stats alone say 'something small plus armorer's guild'. Then magic immunity says 'something major plus armorer's guild'.

To get a mechanician's guild: costs 150 for miner's guild; in turn this means you need.. 32 for a builder's hall (since miner's guild makes you 25% more productive). In turn, you need 112 for university, and 160 for mechanician's guild. That's a total of 304. You can almost certainly get miner's guild before fighter's guild (due to dwarf mineral and production bonus, this is standard; yes on occassion you need the fighter's guild first, but that's the exception, not the rule.) So your fighters guild adds another 200. 504.

Plus, you're a dwarf, so you have a production bonus. It's not a full 50% better, because it doesn't apply to things like sawmill, so let's call it another 25% better. Required production drops to: 378.

You're able to get those golems almost as fast as another race can build a miners guild + fighters guild (assuming that other race builds the miner's guild first - which isn't always standard for other races; and that's faster than anyone who builds the fighters guild first).

And if you take a 'risk' to build the mechanician's guild before the fighter's guild? (Note: In your capital - this is 100% viable, because you KNOW you have 36 turns before the enemy will attack you, which is plenty of time to build the mechanician's guild first AND still build multiple golems) You save another 50 production. Meaning you get your golems before any other race can build a miner's guild + fighter's guild, even assuming they build the miner's guild first.


Another way of looking at it: The requirement of 'miners guild + builders hall + university + mechanician's guild' only costs about the same production as the requirement of 'armorer's guild' - which means you don't even meet 'armorer's guild plus stables' that most similar stat units have. Let alone 'armorers guild plus fantastic stables' that powerful units have.

Sure, if you need to have 7 cities all pumping out golems because you needed full statcks for them to be effective, then I'd agree, fighter's guild is a perfectly good requirement (which you need for something like hammerhands; you need quantity).

But you don't. It's one of the few units where you can send a very small number out (you've proved that; arnuz proved that; I'm proving that) and destroy things - that's what Magic Immunity does. Which means you only need it in your capital.

It needs the armorer's guild requirement.

[Seravy]

How many enemies have armor piercing?

Well, there are pikemen, paladins and gryphons (yes they are Arcanus), but anything that is good at overcoming armor works.

If we limit it to Myrran races and spells, Minotaurs, Hammerhands with some levels, Steam Cannons, Phantom Warriors, Phantom Beast, most 1 figure uncommon or rare creatures, and any higher tier unit buffed by Life magic come into my mind first. If I had to base it on races, it's very strong against Dark Elf, good against Troll, risky against Beastmen and Draconian (without web), weak against other Dwarves.

since miner's guild makes it 25% less

No way, raising your usually ~120-130% production rate to 145-155% is nowhere near the same thing as raising it from 100 to 133 which 25% cost reduction equals.

Dwarves have very few units. Further limiting their choices is simply unacceptable. Are we supposed to play until Armorer's Guild with only halberdiers and cannons? This race doesn't get shaman, magicians, bowmen, cavalry...and while the race can probably function on those two units alone, it's just unacceptable from an "enjoyment" viewpoint. A (supposedly military) race with only two units?
(Yes, I intentionally ignore Swordsmen and Catapults as both are obsoleted by the two units you do get.)

[Nelphine]

That's more than barbarians get, the same as lizardman (but earlier than lizarsmen since cannons don't need fighters guild), tje sane as gnolls, more than klackons, more than trolls (unless you count magicians but they're much later).

Oh sorry you are counting shaman - its the same as all of those (no one is going to use bowman and shaman, or javelineers and shaman, at least not for military purposes), except still more than klackons. I think its COMPLETELY fine.


And on production: true, I didn't count terrain bonus. But except very rarely, that will not make up the 56 difference required to make it equal to armorer's guild plus stables (wait is armorer's still 400? If so its 156 difference, and terrain won't remotely make that up), or the ~500 difference to make up armorer's guild plus fantastic stables.

It will probably make it so other races who build fighters guild then miners guild are about equal to dwarf currently getting golems. (But probably won't beat the dwarf who builds mechanicians guild before fighters guild). But golems are way higher defense than the attack of almost any fighters guild unit.

[Seravy]

Barbarians have Bowmen, Swordsmen, Cavalry and Berserkers to pick from. And Shaman. Even if I assume berserkers obsolete the swordsmen, that's 4 unit types without an Armorer's Guild.

Lizardmen get Javelineers, Halberdiers and Shaman, 3 units. Equal to current dwarves but without the Golem Dwarves would have fewer.
Klackons indeed lack units but they have similar racial benefits (additional production and even money - through less rebels) but get high growth on top, can build magical buildings and do not cost 2 picks to play. Dwarves have to be better as they are a Myrran race and the only area left for that advantage is their units.

Not that "other races are also bad" is an argument for making one worse, ever.

Besides, up till now the problem was "Dwarves are too slow for an early/mid race", the last thing we want is making them slower.

[Nelphine]

They're too slow population wise for s long term economy. They're too slow overland due to speed 1 halberdiers, which you've fixed. Golems have nothing to do with how slow they are, and they're the only unit with magic immunity in the game, which is the ability that the AI understands the least, and therefore is the most abusable by human players.

Giving it to them hundreds of production earlier than any other race gets comparable powerful units is not a way yo balance them - its a way to yell 'abuse me' while ignoring all the penalties the race otherwise has - they can build one golem and conquer multiple cities, meaning overall economy means nothing, and the slowness of their 'standard' units means nothing.

There's no reason to build any other units (halberdiers or cannons) unless your magic can't deal with fliers, in which case still no reason to build halberdiers.

[zitro1987]

My concern is that golem is kind of superior to hammerhands on a cost-ratio and usefulness, yet they are not overpowered.

The issue lies with how disappointing hammerhands really are in battle. 

hammerhands are very slow and can't hit fliers. That's already a massive disadvantage. Sadly, they're not that sturdy (4 armor and 24 hp is not much better than lizardmen/beastmen halberdiers which only cost 60) and has a handful of other weaknesses, yet they cost 220 and 6 upkeep!?. Yes, they hit pretty good and resist curses well but minotaurs (with higher speed and large shield) hit harder and get through armor better

Lower hammerhand cost to the level of minotaurs, maybe even give them +1 armor.

[Seravy]

Hammerhand cost reduction is already done, currently continuing my game with it to see how it works. (so far I'm still producing halberdiers, the enemy units are not strong enough to need hammers, but this will probably change once I turn against yellow.)

One thing I noticed which unbalances the race quite a lot : Coal. A single one of these and a Miner's Guild and you have a 50% discount on your units. Golems for 90, Halberdiers for 30, Hammerhands for 70...might be why they were set to be so expensive. Other races can have this happen as well, but they need at least two ores for it which is far less likely on a single city.

[Seravy]

New intercontinental attack works really well - AI attacked and sunk my ship that was protected by a water walking hammerhand using a doomstack of 3 adamant draconian halberdiers and a lot of nagas. Now I need a new army, the one I wanted to use to attack their capital is on the bottom of the sea.

The old one probably would have assumed my force is stronger with the simplified calculation.