American Politics Discussion Thread

[Charr Babies]

We can't have that senile war monger in power anymore. Trump, tho with a price to pay, is probably the best thing that can happen; our chance to get out of this Ukraine and Israel mess without losing too much face.

[Cyneheard]

We can't have that senile war monger in power anymore. Trump, tho with a price to pay, is probably the best thing that can happen; our chance to get out of this Ukraine and Israel mess without losing too much face.

You're saying you're voting on foreign policy and actually think Trump is the better choice??? "Senile warmonger" is also ridiculous for Biden, but I'm focusing on how you decide that Trump is a decent choice.

First, "get out of this mess" isn't even an accurate description. We're not sending troops. We're only sending $, that can be replaced. We spend ~$900B a year on defense anyway, an extra $100B to save Ukraine and remind China that invading Taiwan is a very bad idea is money well spent and relatively cheap.

Ukraine is in trouble right now because Putin is sure that he can outwait the US, and the GOP is doing a very good job of making sure that happens. We're already seeing the consequences of US money running out, courtesy of the GOP controlling the House, and that's just the beginning. Trump has sold out Ukraine before, he's going to do it again.

We've seen what Putin does - Mariupol, Bucha; the civilian deaths will be catastrophic. And Eastern Europe is well aware that they're next. Trump's made it very clear that he won't defend NATO countries - talk about "losing too much face", that's been a bedrock commitment of the United States of America for almost 80 years. No one will ever trust the US again. A vote for Trump means a vote for more war in Europe.

Israel - Trump is going to be worse for the people of Gaza. Why did we get a ceasefire in the first place? Because Biden made it happen. Any hope for this calming down depends on the US.

And don't forget Taiwan. If China sees that the US, under Trump and/or the GOP, will just abandon its allies, they're infinitely more likely to invade Taiwan. The computer hardware industry is incredibly dependent on Taiwan's microchips. We'd see repeats of the GPU shortage from COVID, except it'll take longer to untangle and won't just be GPUs and cars. And no one is going to want to do business with China if they can help it. I can't even begin to predict the consequences of that. And South Korea and Japan aren't going to let China invade an ally and do nothing.

[Mjmd]

I feel like a video on why alliances are important is due. I rarely post youtube stuff but Perun is great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUL8EvZkfEY

Trump doesn't pay prices. He lets other people pay prices. He will gladly just let our carefully built alliances collapse because someone asked him even if the US doesn't get anything out of it (see the Kurds).

Ukraine money isn't just about Ukraine (and for that matter most of the money comes back to us). One of the best ways to prevent a large scale war / China just riding roughshod over southeast Asia is to show America will support its allies and democracies. Key is that Europe is reminded that they may at least owe us some economic sanctions against China if needed.

Again, United States is at the center of the most powerful military alliance web in history. This isn't a balance of power situation that can explode, its the most deterrent that has ever existed to large scale war. Again, less chance of a large war / nuclear war is good.

[Charr Babies]

No wonder the US is the warmonger it is, if you think war is only a matter of money well spent; when human life and suffering did not even figure in your entire post.  

First, "get out of this mess" isn't even an accurate description. We're not sending troops. We're only sending $, that can be replaced. We spend ~$900B a year on defense anyway, an extra $100B to save Ukraine and remind China that invading Taiwan is a very bad idea is money well spent and relatively cheap.

You talk as if money is nothing while you are looking at the decaying infrastructure and homelessness across our own backyard. Fine, we can keep printing money anyway, for now. 
We are not saving Ukraine. With tens of thousands of deaths and many millions of displaced Ukrainians already. Good save! And Cheap too!
I am afraid China is not getting the message. They look at Russia and see it is sitting pretty, while the rest of the west suffers at least economically. As of 2022, Russia’s GDP further rose to $2,240.42 billion, marking a substantial 21.97% increase. They see the so called allies are only paying lip service to the US sanctions.

 

Ukraine is in trouble right now because Putin is sure that he can outwait the US, and the GOP is doing a very good job of making sure that happens. We're already seeing the consequences of US money running out, courtesy of the GOP controlling the House, and that's just the beginning.

And you still maintain money if free flowing...

Trump has sold out Ukraine before, he's going to do it again.

Not Trump, but since these are the only 2 clowns will be running the show. We have sold out many of our so called allies before. That is why I keep referring our allies condoms, we discard them as soon as we finish fucking with them.

But that's why I said it is a good thing for Ukraine. Give peace a chance. 

We've seen what Putin does - Mariupol, Bucha; the civilian deaths will be catastrophic. And Eastern Europe is well aware that they're next. Trump's made it very clear that he won't defend NATO countries - talk about "losing too much face", that's been a bedrock commitment of the United States of America for almost 80 years. No one will ever trust the US again. A vote for Trump means a vote for more war in Europe.

Yes we all know we are the bedrock of all the human suffering around the globe. We have lost many allies during Biden's reign, never mind trust. See how many world leader, including the West are making pilgrimage kissing up to China? How many nations are signing up for the Bric+++?  

Israel - Trump is going to be worse for the people of Gaza. Why did we get a ceasefire in the first place? Because Biden made it happen. Any hope for this calming down depends on the US.

Why did Israel think they can commit genocide without the us propping it up? Actually, we shouldn't get into that since it's still a very sensitive issue for both sides. So I will just leave it at that.

And don't forget Taiwan. If China sees that the US, under Trump and/or the GOP, will just abandon its allies, they're infinitely more likely to invade Taiwan. The computer hardware industry is incredibly dependent on Taiwan's microchips. We'd see repeats of the GPU shortage from COVID, except it'll take longer to untangle and won't just be GPUs and cars. And no one is going to want to do business with China if they can help it. I can't even begin to predict the consequences of that. And South Korea and Japan aren't going to let China invade an ally and do nothing.

Again, United States is at the center of the most powerful military alliance web in history. This isn't a balance of power situation that can explode, its the most deterrent that has ever existed to large scale war. Again, less chance of a large war / nuclear war is good.

Mjmd: One of the best ways to prevent a large scale war / China just riding roughshod over southeast Asia is to show America will support its allies and democracies. Key is that Europe is reminded that they may at least owe us some economic sanctions against China if needed.

Again, United States is at the center of the most powerful military alliance web in history. This isn't a balance of power situation that can explode, its the most deterrent that has ever existed to large scale war. Again, less chance of a large war / nuclear war is good.

Everyone wants to do business with China. Business is for profit, and profit first.

And China has already declared in 1921 when Biden took power, "The US does not have the qualification to speak to China from a position of strength" 
You know, it is getting easier and easier to "invade" Taiwan such as now, when we are preoccupied and stretch thin. That is not what China wants as long as there's still a glimmer of hope on diplomacy. While you still think Japan and Korea will join us to fight China over Taiwan, I am thinking, NOT. At what cost vs gain. What can we gain from a war with China. What can we lose on a war with China. It makes no sense, and least economical sense. It's all postering. A collapsed US economy can have devastating effects on the global scale. So does a collapsed China economy. 

Besides, we only fight enemies who can't fight back. American's direct involvement in a war against Russia and or China means the war will also happen in American soil. We don't have the stomach for it!

Trump doesn't pay prices. He lets other people p[ay prices.

That's what I meant.

[Mjmd]

So the answer to less suffering is to let autocrats do whatever they want? History says that is not the answer. I would say more support would reduce this a lot faster.

So alliances reduce the amount of money you have to spend on defense. In multiple ways. So yes spending money on Ukraine helps save money. Again, a lot of that money comes back to us. I've said it before but the US taxpayer would be so much better off if we sent Ukraine 1/4 of our tank fleet. We are just paying for maintenance on tanks that will never be used. Not all, but a lot of the stuff we've sent is old. Now new stuff when we send a low number of Himars that cost us money but get orders for hundreds. It makes a lot more financial sense when you look at it in a whole.

The US has a lot of long term allies that have been kept and built through both Republican and Democratic presidents. Trump is an ass to everyone. Its all about the thing he is focusing on atm with no thinking to broader implications.

The people who think there would be peace if the US and EU pulled out of supporting Ukraine and let them be overrun is WAY too high. That isn't how history works. Letting autocratic countries run roughshod over others doesn't end well.

Biden has increased strength and allies. There has been a lot of work in the Pacific that doesn't get much coverage. You think it would be better with Trump insulting and bullying our allies? And considering one of the Bricc members also signed up for the Quad, well I don't view Briccs as any kind of alliance. Should we be doing more building economic support from across  the world. Absolutely, but considering any kind of foreign aid is bad if you are Trump this isn't likely from him either.

Republicans are much more pro Israel than Democrats. Bidens been having to walk a line, but its no secret which side of the line Trump would be on.

Again, stronger allies = more chance of stopping a Taiwan invasion. Yes countries look out for themselves, but that is why its nice if they like us and owe us for helping them. And we aren't stretched thin. And btw the answer on how to increase strength is alliances, which need to be maintained.

I also don't think the US would directly fight. You don't have to fight, you just have to make sure there the price is too steep. Why did the Berlin blockade stop? Sanctions won't collapse economies, but they do impose a price. How high that price is is dependent on how well orchestrated they are. Which depends on your allies going along with you. Also, if you wanted to do some kind of blockade it would be nice if the rest of the world at least nodded along. Again, you need allies for that.

[Charr Babies]

So the answer to less suffering is to let autocrats do whatever they want? History says that is not the answer. I would say more support would reduce this a lot faster.

So alliances reduce the amount of money you have to spend on defense. In multiple ways. So yes spending money on Ukraine helps save money. Again, a lot of that money comes back to us. I've said it before but the US taxpayer would be so much better off if we sent Ukraine 1/4 of our tank fleet. We are just paying for maintenance on tanks that will never be used. Not all, but a lot of the stuff we've sent is old. Now new stuff when we send a low number of Himars that cost us money but get orders for hundreds. It makes a lot more financial sense when you look at it in a whole.

The US has a lot of long term allies that have been kept and built through both Republican and Democratic presidents. Trump is an ass to everyone. Its all about the thing he is focusing on atm with no thinking to broader implications.

The people who think there would be peace if the US and EU pulled out of supporting Ukraine and let them be overrun is WAY too high. That isn't how history works. Letting autocratic countries run roughshod over others doesn't end well.

Biden has increased strength and allies. There has been a lot of work in the Pacific that doesn't get much coverage. You think it would be better with Trump insulting and bullying our allies? And considering one of the Bricc members also signed up for the Quad, well I don't view Briccs as any kind of alliance. Should we be doing more building economic support from across  the world. Absolutely, but considering any kind of foreign aid is bad if you are Trump this isn't likely from him either.

Republicans are much more pro Israel than Democrats. Bidens been having to walk a line, but its no secret which side of the line Trump would be on.

Again, stronger allies = more chance of stopping a Taiwan invasion. Yes countries look out for themselves, but that is why its nice if they like us and owe us for helping them. And we aren't stretched thin. And btw the answer on how to increase strength is alliances, which need to be maintained.

I also don't think the US would directly fight. You don't have to fight, you just have to make sure there the price is too steep. Why did the Berlin blockade stop? Sanctions won't collapse economies, but they do impose a price. How high that price is is dependent on how well orchestrated they are. Which depends on your allies going along with you. Also, if you wanted to do some kind of blockade it would be nice if the rest of the world at least nodded along. Again, you need allies for that.

Of course I disagree on your perspective. 

...History says that is not the answer. I would say more support would reduce this a lot faster.

Yes, history. just look at all the shit that has happened and happening around the globe with us involvement. 

I am beginning to form an opinion that the US coming to power after WWII is the worst thing that ever happened to humanity. That not only include casualties of war but human suffering that lasts for generations. Example, 60 years of Cuba sanctions and Iraq invasion. Anyone want to help me compile a list?

[Cyneheard]

...History says that is not the answer. I would say more support would reduce this a lot faster.

Yes, history. just look at all the shit that has happened and happening around the globe with us involvement. 

I am beginning to form an opinion that the US coming to power after WWII is the worst thing that ever happened to humanity. That not only include casualties of war but human suffering that lasts for generations. Example, 60 years of Cuba sanctions and Iraq invasion. Anyone want to help me compile a list?

Since the world before WWII was so much better...

As bad as Iraq was, it's nothing compared to WWII itself. Pax Americana is both quite flawed and infinitely better than every other version in human history. And what were the post-WWII alternatives?
1) Soviet domination. Under Stalin. Just ask Poland if they'd rather be part of EU and NATO instead of the Warsaw Pact - they have a very clear answer, and are willing to re-arm to defend it. Because they know exactly what Russian domination looks like.
2) Hitler.
3) Imperial Japan - Nanking anyone?
4) British and French imperialism? Besides the fact that they were too broke and worn down to do it themselves - Britain kept food rationing for a decade+ after the war, they didn't have the resources to play the role the US did, we've seen that story too.

...History says that is not the answer. I would say more support would reduce this a lot faster.

Yes, history. just look at all the shit that has happened and happening around the globe with us involvement. 

I am beginning to form an opinion that the US coming to power after WWII is the worst thing that ever happened to humanity. That not only include casualties of war but human suffering that lasts for generations. Example, 60 years of Cuba sanctions and Iraq invasion. Anyone want to help me compile a list?

[greenline]

The worst feature of the USA seeking world domination has been the solidification of a global economy and elite class who define themselves by a very perverse set of values. Pax Americana means every elite or wannabe elite person fights for a spot in the ivy leagues, and the ivy leagues put out horrible creatures like the WEF gremlins who tell you to "Own nothing, and be happy". Or the violent leftist radicals like Claudine Gray who want to decolonize the world - to violently turn the world into the worst parts of Brazil.

Pax Americana would not be the gold standard for political leadership of the world. The best leader would be a monarch like Cyrus, who was a Pharaoh in Egypt and a pious Zoroastrian in his homeland, and primarily sought taxes in both locations. The benefits of living now come primarily from advances in medicine and agriculture, and have nothing to do with American values themselves.

[darrelljs]

It's really hard to find a bad thing to say about Cyrus. A lot of the good America does is lost in the bad...I'm not defending the criticisms they are often warranted, but it reminds me of people who say Christianity is the worst thing that ever happened, ignoring the good that came with the bad. Re: Ukraine, as usual The Economist said it best:

If Uncle Sam fails to stand behind a democratic ally defending itself against an unprovoked invasion by a tyrant who is also the West's most belligerent geopolitical foe, what good are American security guarantees in the Baltics or Taiwan or the Middle East? Ukraine has doggedly resisted Vladimir Putin's imperial ambitions without endangering a single American soldier. To cut it loose would embolden aggressors everywhere and make the world less safe for everyone. House Republicans are no doubt congratulating themselves for making life harder for Mr Biden. If they had set out to harm America and help Mr Putin they could hardly have done a better job.

Darrell

[Mjmd]

Pax America is flawed, but agreed with Cyneheard that looking at the alternatives we look ok. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do better mind.