American Politics Discussion Thread

[Charr Babies]

As bad as Iraq was, it's nothing compared to WWII itself. Pax Americana is both quite flawed and infinitely better than every other version in human history. And what were the post-WWII alternatives?
1) Soviet domination. Under Stalin. Just ask Poland if they'd rather be part of EU and NATO instead of the Warsaw Pact - they have a very clear answer, and are willing to re-arm to defend it. Because they know exactly what Russian domination looks like.
2) Hitler.
3) Imperial Japan - Nanking anyone?
4) British and French imperialism? Besides the fact that they were too broke and worn down to do it themselves - Britain kept food rationing for a decade+ after the war, they didn't have the resources to play the role the US did, we've seen that story too.

I mean if we adjust for (population) inflation what happened in ancient times would still not compare. They just can't kill people as fast as we civilized people can.  Not fact checked, but sounded good ;p However,

We are aware of these atrocities but these are MOSTLY localized to a small portion of the world, committed by a single entity, for a relatively short period of time. Whereas, the US is all over the places, and at war ever since WWII. It can certainly rack up a high score.

[Charr Babies]

l The Economist said it best:

If Uncle Sam fails to stand behind a democratic ally defending itself against an unprovoked invasion by a tyrant who is also the West's most belligerent geopolitical foe, what good are American security guarantees in the Baltics or Taiwan or the Middle East?  Ukraine has doggedly resisted Vladimir Putin's imperial ambitions without endangering a single American soldier.  To cut it loose would embolden aggressors everywhere and make the world less safe for everyone.  House Republicans are no doubt congratulating themselves for making life harder for Mr Biden.  If they had set out to harm America and help Mr Putin they could hardly have done a better job.

Darrell

Sure if we buy-in that narrative, shrouded under Western propaganda.  Most of the world see the Ukraine situation is due to American, aka NATO, expansion. Just as US would not let Russia send nukes to Cuba.

Isn't that why the West started a major smear campaign against Tucker Carlson as soon as they got news he was going to interview Putin? Before the interview even happened. LoL

[mackoti]

l The Economist said it best:

If Uncle Sam fails to stand behind a democratic ally defending itself against an unprovoked invasion by a tyrant who is also the West's most belligerent geopolitical foe, what good are American security guarantees in the Baltics or Taiwan or the Middle East?  Ukraine has doggedly resisted Vladimir Putin's imperial ambitions without endangering a single American soldier.  To cut it loose would embolden aggressors everywhere and make the world less safe for everyone.  House Republicans are no doubt congratulating themselves for making life harder for Mr Biden.  If they had set out to harm America and help Mr Putin they could hardly have done a better job.

Darrell

Sure if we buy-in that narrative. Most of the world see the Ukraine situation is due to American, aka NATO, expansion.

Well , I can tell you for sure Uckraine neighbours dont see this how you implie. I am from Romania and over 90% of Romanians are gratefull to USA is helpin Ukraine. I think same is bettwenn polish. I supose for people which have no skin in the game is is easy to comment and make  all kind of mocropolitics and geostrategic stuff. I belive and many romanians belive Ukrainians have the right to chose with whoe they allie.  And thanks God  , Rusia doest have the power to impose theyr fail state to others.

[greenline]

If Uncle Sam fails to stand behind a democratic ally defending itself against an unprovoked invasion by a tyrant who is also the West's most belligerent geopolitical foe, what good are American security guarantees in the Baltics or Taiwan or the Middle East?  Ukraine has doggedly resisted Vladimir Putin's imperial ambitions without endangering a single American soldier.  To cut it loose would embolden aggressors everywhere and make the world less safe for everyone.  House Republicans are no doubt congratulating themselves for making life harder for Mr Biden.  If they had set out to harm America and help Mr Putin they could hardly have done a better job.

I imagine the House Republicans would respond by questioning why Vladimir Putin is given the label of the West's most belligerent geopolitical foe, when he has done nothing to directly attack American troops thus far. Ukraine is not even part of NATO and has no treaties demanding any American offer it safety - the advocates for Ukraine claim it is for democracy's sake. "Making the world safe for democracy" is Woodrow Wilson's idea, and he embodies many of the worst parts of American foreign policy (and domestic as well). If one wants America to do better - perhaps stop copying one of its worst presidents?

[Mjmd]

I distinctly remember Russia doing bounties for killed US troops. Plus its pretty much international relations 101 that if you can screw over a major geopolitical rival and gain major points with allies at the same time its a no brainier. There were the Budapest Memorandum as well.

Its really weird to see Republicans bowing down to Trump on things that there previous idol Reagan would be all over.

[AdrienIer]

Isn't that why the West started a major smear campaign against Tucker Carlson as soon as they got news he was going to interview Putin? Before the interview even happened. LoL

Sometimes I'm reminded that some people don't know about Carlson, how stupid and how awful he is. Some kind of pro-Carlson propaganda is apparently working if that's what some people think.

[greenline]

Here is the calculus for why such a move is not a simple 'no brainer'.

Adding another 100B to the budget is not chump change. Americans will be paying for it whether through tax hikes or inflation. These items are being sold to Ukraine, but Ukraine increasingly lacks any means of paying for the weapons due to its economy being ruined by the war. Therefore, Americans will have to pay to keep Ukraine going as a rump state in the war until either it or Russia runs out of soldiers (betting against Russia here being unwise). If Americans simply cease giving Ukraine stuff, they do not have to keep paying for anything through tax hikes or inflation. The principle concern on many American's minds this election are economic issues and inflation in particular, so any reason not to expand the budget for frivolous ideological reasons like 'saving democracy' in an Eastern European country of no value to the average American.

[AdrienIer]

Better to let Ukrainians die and be deported to siberia then ?

[greenline]

The Ukranians are almost certainly going to perish as a nation due to the war. The amount of aid they receive at this point will just determine how long it takes. The only thing that could guarantee their survival is smuggling them nuclear weapons, which is the kind of thing that might invite very ugly reprisals.

[AdrienIer]

Weird take. Russia is taking a heavy toll from the war, and could decide to stop at any moment. Not with the current leadership, probably, but it's the only acceptable outcome for the west.