We just want our throne back Wesnoth SG 2

[Jkaen]

Nice going, seems we have got over the main difficulty now, and its mop up time. Well done all (those fighters certinaly survived better than I thought they would).

[haphazard1]

Nice work, Ranamar!

I am assuming (since it was not mentioned) that no one important died. With all the promotions, it sounds like things are going well. And with most of the Princess' forces eliminated, we can move in with powerful ranged attackers and subdue her. The ungrateful little <mumble, mumble>....

[Mardoc]

Yikes, I didn't expect *that* much progress. I'll aim to grab this tonight, although there's a chance it'll slip to tomorrow. Unless the Princess reinforces heavily, I ought to be able to finish it and start us on the next scenario.

[Ranamar]

I was kind of shocked by the progress too. Mostly, I was surprised by the way I got everyone promoted. I guess the one guy who didn't level up still doesn't have much experience on him, and the rest was L1s killing L2s, though.

No, we didn't lose anyone, although the ranger there was a close-run thing. I think one more hit by the swordsman probably would have killed him, although it isn't obvious after getting healed by the white mage. Delfador was also a bit of gamble. If they'd thrown every unit they had at him and hit with most of their attacks, (highly improbable with 60% village defense, but possible) they could have killed him. I think they could have also ZOCed him into the village, but we probably could have rescued him. Clearly, the AI didn't think it was worth trying, what with that pikeman who landed 2 or maybe 3 of his attacks on the ranger...

[haphazard1]

I have been playing this campaign again solo, to refresh my memory of the details and just for fun. One question for the team:

Elf scouts/riders/outriders -- why haven't we developed any of these guys? In my campaign I am a bit further than we are (up to the Dwarven Doors scenario) and I have 3 outriders, a couple riders, and more scouts being developed and they have been tremendously useful.

Comparing them to horsemen/knights, elf scouts:

- Have ranged attack as well as melee attack. They can make those unopposed ranged attacks on melee-only enemies for safe damage and XP, while not being vulnerable as horsemen are to unopposed ranged attacks.
- Have greater mobility, with 1 higher base speed and better terrain factors for forests and mountains
- Get better defense in many terrain types
- Cheaper to recruit (18 vs 23 gold)

They are not as tough as horsemen (especially the fully promoted versions), they do not do as much melee damage and don't have charge (although ranged attack makes up a lot of the difference, maybe more than all of it), and they don't become paladins with healing and arcane attacks (assuming you choose that and not grand knight). But elf scouts make very good mobile raiders to claim villages and hit isolated units, and their speed plus melee/ranged abilities make them great free-floating troubleshooters during mass combats. I can send a rider into situations where I would never send a knight (that I wanted to keep alive, anyway ) because of enemy ranged units.

So what am I missing about these guys that we don't have a single one? Would it be worthwhile to develop a few?

Good luck with finishing off the Princess, Mardoc! Then we can go face the endless undead hordes in the next scenario.

[Mardoc]

So what am I missing about these guys that we don't have a single one? Would it be worthwhile to develop a few?

Good luck with finishing off the Princess, Mardoc! Then we can go face the endless undead hordes in the next scenario.

We do have one, don't we? I know we had a scout promoted to level 2 sometime in the city siege level. Unless he's died since...

If anything, I think the problem is that they're *too* mobile, and hence easy to accidentally put somewhere unsupported and let die. I'd be happy developing a couple more, though - it's just that there's only so much we can do at once and our priorities have been elsewhere.

Now that we've got a core of Paladins, starting to get decent mages and captain/heroes, the holes in our force become more obvious. I think what we're missing is pretty much archers and scouts. Perhaps we could use a couple more Shamans up to Shydes and always more Mages.

If the next level is undead out the wazoo - well, I'll put extra effort into getting our mages leveled, particularly Mr. Loyal White.

[haphazard1]

We do have one, don't we? I know we had a scout promoted to level 2 sometime in the city siege level. Unless he's died since...

I will have to check the recall list, I thought he got cut off and killed during the peninsula of the undead map. At most we have one, but I think we do not have any at the moment.

If anything, I think the problem is that they're *too* mobile, and hence easy to accidentally put somewhere unsupported and let die. I'd be happy developing a couple more, though - it's just that there's only so much we can do at once and our priorities have been elsewhere.

The too mobile bit can be a problem -- I have lost a couple that way. Being fast doesn't help if the enemy gets units on opposite sides of your unit. I would like to develop a couple more, if we can. There are some levels coming up which are good for developing fresh units, such as Northern Winter.

Now that we've got a core of Paladins, starting to get decent mages and captain/heroes, the holes in our force become more obvious. I think what we're missing is pretty much archers and scouts. Perhaps we could use a couple more Shamans up to Shydes and always more Mages.

Yeah, it seems we have all the specialty units and none of the basic ones. In my personal campaign I have a bunch of avengers, champions, rangers, and heros. But the SG force is mostly other types. Not that it is bad to have all those mages, healers, paladins, etc.

If the next level is undead out the wazoo - well, I'll put extra effort into getting our mages leveled, particularly Mr. Loyal White.

Mages will certainly be useful, especially white mages. The problem is keeping units alive as the endless hordes march. And we still need tough melee units to resist the stronger undead attacks, especially chocobones. Not to mention the wraiths....

[Ranamar]

I will have to check the recall list, I thought he got cut off and killed during the peninsula of the undead map. At most we have one, but I think we do not have any at the moment.

The too mobile bit can be a problem -- I have lost a couple that way. Being fast doesn't help if the enemy gets units on opposite sides of your unit. I would like to develop a couple more, if we can. There are some levels coming up which are good for developing fresh units, such as Northern Winter.

He's in the north, just off the screenshot I posted. I grabbed another village with him, but I was afraid he was too fragile in the face of a Pikeman to move where he could get attacked. (... and with high speed, he could always show up next turn, right?)

I'd say the elves' units can be characterized thusly:
Our baseline has a strong melee attack and a weaker ranged attack.
One variant trades some health for better dodge in forests and trades melee damage potential for ranged damage potential.
The other variant trades damage potential from both attacks (and a little HP after leveling up) for significantly more movement points.

The first is obviously the fighter, the second is obviously the archer, and the third is obviously the scout.

Actually, looking back, I think the real problem with the scout is that you can't lead an assault with scouts. Sure, they're almost as durable as fighters, and they get the same dodge values (which is unique), but they have barely more melee damage potential than the archer and barely more ranged damage potential than the fighter. So, you have to coddle them to level up, at which point they're a ranger that trades almost half its best attack and the ambush ability for 4 points of speed. At level 3, they have worse damage potential than an avenger in melee or a champion at range. (The only saving grace for the L3 is that the other units require 20% more exp to level up... but then you have to pay L3 upkeep.)

I thought they were really cool until I did that sobering analysis the first time. On the other hand, as otherwise expendable units which you use for a land grab, they're quite good. For one thing, they actually get decent dodge in a village and don't get bogged down in forests, unlike human cavalry. If a few of them do get a measurable amount of experience without dying, well, more power to them!

I do remember playing a scenario once before where something like ten of them cut my force to pieces, but I'm inclined to say that that's because they were L3 units, I had L2 units at best, and I could neither chase down their wounded nor ZOC them away from mine because they could make end runs around my line and cut through the abundant forest on the map. They do well in hit-and-run situations with overwhelming force, but taking L2 or L3 casualties sucks, and you'll be on the losing side of the DPR exchange every single time. (It just doesn't matter if you can afford to run away and heal and they can't.)

Yeah, it seems we have all the specialty units and none of the basic ones. In my personal campaign I have a bunch of avengers, champions, rangers, and heros. But the SG force is mostly other types. Not that it is bad to have all those mages, healers, paladins, etc.

More mages are always better, I say, since the fire ones can match resilient line fighters of a level lower and then turn around and unleash FIREBALLS.

But yeah, we have a rather bizarre ragtag force of special units at a stage when I think, last time I played, I had ... 2 or 3 Avengers, some rangers, and a bunch of mages. (... no horses because I hadn't figured out how to use them well... or shamans because they were a PITA to level up. I'm also confused as hell as to why I seem to be better at this game now than I was the last time I played.)

Mages will certainly be useful, especially white mages. The problem is keeping units alive as the endless hordes march. And we still need tough melee units to resist the stronger undead attacks, especially chocobones. Not to mention the wraiths....

Paladins have excellent resistances, but they get flat-ground defenses when they're in a castle. They'll also have an obnoxious tendency to kill attacking undead when defending, which will give the attacker more total potential attacks. (Obnoxious chance to kill attackers when defending! What has the world come to? )

[Mardoc]

T13 - yep, piece of cake so far. We have a Rogue now, as well as a Mage of Light (and 2 more XP on our fully healthy Elvish Rider, who'd just been hanging out in enemy villages)



T14 - Kill the Longbowman, advance, kill Li'sar's newly recruited swordsman too.

T15 - Finish Li'sar, giving the 'kill' to our druid.

And we're ready to go fight the undead! With a Mage of Light to help - units near him fight as though it were one step closer to day (night -> Dawn -> Day). All we have to do is survive to the end, although you won't catch me objecting if someone were to successfully take out one of the foes. Early finish bonus (yeah right) if we get all three.


The Save

[Ranamar]

You didn't say anything about how Konrad and Delfador let Li'Sar go! (Since she's in recurring-villain mode...)

... and now, after laboriously dismantling the value of Elvish Scouts as fighters, I'm going to suggest recruiting a bunch. Okay, maybe just 3 or 4. Why? To steal villages, of course!

It'll be a suicide mission. I don't expect any of them to survive. What I expect is that they'll cost the enemy more than they cost us, or, at least, reduce their income to closer to just their base income. If we can get units running after them, that's also units that aren't running after our heroes in the center. Nonetheless, the odds of survival for them will be low, and will be lower if you actually try to get them any exp. (If you find any with good traits, I won't begrudge them being recalled in the future, of course, but anyone who gets a good amount of exp will probably also get himself killed.)