Prepare for the barbarians. Produce archers and some fog busters.
Settle 3rd city in the east (cow) and 4th city near the ivory (happiness)
Explore and find any potential eastern neighbors
Medium:
Settle that gold spot in the NW. This may be our 5th or 6th city.
Explore that southern island city. This city provides another happiness in whales. This will propably also be our Moai city.
Long:
Expand further north-east and/or east
Prepare and conquer at least that awesome city spot from RFS
It's time to think about my SML goals again. But first how did I do with my last goals:
Short:
I did produce some archers and 2 of my warriors are exploring near Shallow and the north and while they are doing that they are also fogbusting. The barbs attacked and I managed to defeat them with very minor damage to my economy. All in all it went ok. Would have been better if I had 1 more archer.
I settled 3rd and 4th city, so mission accomplished.
I found Shallow and will have graphs shortly. Superdeath also introduced himself and is our north-eastern neighbor.
Medium:
Settling the gold will be a high priority for the next turns. I think I can manage this in the next turns.
Not only did I explore that southern island, I'm also almost ready to settle it. This went really well.
Long:
Expansion north-east will be difficult, because Superdeath already has a headstart. But he also weakened himself in his conflict with Magic, so there might still be a chance.
Should Shallow attack RFS, I also get a good chance to conquer that city called Lighthouse from RFS.
I think I managed my goals quite well, so on to the next:
Short:
Produce a chariot to scout north-west
Settle at least that gold city and maybe the rice city.
Produce more military
Produce at least 2 more workers
Build a library in Karlabos and work 2 scientist.
Keep an eye on Shallow's attack plans
Medium:
Conquer Lighthouse city from RFS
Settle the gems spot
Pop a great scientist in Karlabos
Long:
Build up a defensive position near the gold, gems, Karlabos and the Lighthouse city from RFS
About the updated dotmap. My most recent plan (Settler ASAP) has me finish a chariot in T66 in Exdeath, which should get to the hill 1S of the rice in T67. With the updated info about the rice area I will update my dotmap.
Gold-city planted on your yellow #6 dot can work the PFH 1NW for a total of 5 hammers. Combined with a pre-chop of the hill 1S you can get the barracks completed in 2 turns to start working towards the border pop for Rice and 20% culture defenses. Options from there:
6-turn granary, still working the PFH
8-turn granary, working 1f/2h GFH
5-turn archer, still working the PFH
7-turn archer, working 1f/2h GFH
This will be a decent (or potentially excellent) hammer city so the barracks will get good use long-term from unit production. The 8-turn granary is probably the better option since the food box will be slowy filling while building it.
Is Coeurva playing Rome? I found your post-snakepick list but the white color is throwing me off. You'll need to be wary in the future, but walls and PRO-archers + AGG-Axes should get the job done until CKN hit the field.
Looking at rival civ options for claiming the gold, the only really feasible site is RFS planting on the desert hill copper. Other option is Coeurva planting in the same place you are looking at. In that case, first to arrive will probably be the deciding factor. If you can claim it with 2 archers and a fog-busting warrior (plus the pre-chopping worker that can go on the mine the Gold) you should be amply secure until the land-grab phase is over. There are also 3 more 1st-ring forests plus 3 in the 2nd ring that can be used to get the early infrastructure (or military) set up. All-in-all I think it makes sense to stretch for the gold ahead of the rice-city.
Does Oracle still get production boost from Marble in RtR? From the change log it looks like it would get +50%. What other builds in the near-term can be boosted by Marble? Just the wonders unlocked at Literature? Trying to brainstorm how you could capitalize on that bonus.
In recent games, it seems that Oracle has fallen very late. It might be possible to land Machinery with the Oracle if you time things right. The only pre-requisite for Machinery is Metal Casting? Direct bee-line would be Myst > Poly (Hinduism) > Priesthood > Metal Casting (can pick up Iron Working after). The biggest question at that point would be how to get the commerce for the push to Currency? Capture gold? Cottages that you plant now?
***Evil Plot™ alert***
... continue reading inside the spoiler at your own risk
Or do you even need to rush to Currency? With PRO/AGG Tokugawa you could try for an earlier domination victory by completely ignoring the top of of the tech tree. Just brainstorming again, but could you plan for a shorter game, scrape your way to Civil Service/Guilds, turn off research, and go all-out hammer emphasis at your cities? This is only a 6-player game. Magic and Superdeath are already weakened. RFS appears slightly behind at this point. Coeurva and Shallow Thought are your big rivals, and they are both your neighbors and easily reachable. The only thing you need commerce for at that point is to avoid bankruptcy.
In fact, you could even skip Civil Service. Vassalage has cheaper upkeep, more free unit support, and +2XP. Better than Bureaucracy for an all-out war situation, and saves a tech. In that case you could even skip Code of Laws, although that may be necessary simply for Courthouses to keep you out of bankruptcy as you continue your conquests. Here's a look at the tech tree:
This GREEN tech path gives you Trebs + CKN for collateral, Longbows + city walls for defense, Swords for you slow mover stack, and eventually HA > Knights for forking and quickly advancing from the front. You give up Catapults (why cats when you have CKN?), and Engineering (too expensive anyway, Coeurva will have run away with the game already by the time you get both Guilds + Engineering even if you go with standard play). You also give up Heroic Epic, but that is not as important if you are pushing military from all cities. HE only pays off in a longer game as well.
By cutting out techs such as Mathematics, Alphabet, Currency, Construction, Calendar, Aesth/Lit you can reach Guilds in the same time-frame as civs teching at twice your rate. Even if you can get to guilds 5 turns ahead of Coeurva that will be enough if you set things up properly with pre-builds. You can ignore infrastructure builds like Libraries and Marketplaces, just building Forges and military. Continuing with Writing > Religion now you as currently planned you don't have to decide immediately. And if you do pop out a GScientist from a library after deciding to go all-out-war, then you would be better served by a golden age then an academy.
Writing is in ORANGE because theoretically it could be cut out as well. But it makes sense to continue to Writing now since that is your current plan, a library or two won't hurt since even in the total-war scenario you have quote a while of research ahead of you yet. Civil Service is ORANGE because Macemen would be a nice upgrade from Swords, but as long as your opponents don't get them I think you should be fine with just swords. Swords get +50% city attack and should be fine hitters after collateral from CKN + Trebs. Save the research and put the gold into upgrades or staving off bankruptcy. Theology is ORANGE because Theocracy would be nice for the +2XP, but again the gold is probably better saved. A couple extra HA>Knight upgrades could be the deciding factor. Code of Laws might be necessary as mentioned above for Courthouses to save on maintenance in your conquests.
^ in all seriousness, the above Evil Plot™ might be your best shot as Toku Pro/Agg. In picking it, you essentially guaranteed that you would have to make your decisive move on the battlefield. Why not earlier before other civs have a chance to snowball away?
***Evil Plot™ alert*** ... a continuation of the above, but more extreme:
Note the color of Monarchy + Feudalism + Guilds updated to MAGENTA color. These 3 techs combined add Hereditary Rule, Vassalage, Longbows, and Knights. HR requires garrisoned units to be effective, which cost maintenance. If you keep your pop around 5-6 whipping units as you grow you can get by without the extra happy (as long as you don't go crazy with the whip). War Weariness disappears once a rival is completely eliminated so that can be mitigated by effective warfare.
The advantage of Longbows as compared to Crossbows is 16% cheaper and gets hill and city defense bonus. But your CKN's do collateral damage and are more versatile, plus the 50% bonus vs. melee counters the rival's best option of the Swordsman until the era of Knights. The mandate then would be to win before Knights arrive on the scene.
Foregoing Knights yourself might seem like a very extreme choice, but that is a lot of commerce saved that can instead go into unit upgrades. Unit upgrades accelerate your momentum on the battlefield. Not only does it allow you to pre-build military, it allows you to hide your power somewhat and catch your rivals by surprise. You can build archers now, that become CKN at the opportune time. Do Chariots upgrade to HA? If so, the same applies. By avoiding Feudalism you can keep building Archers, thus your lower production cities can churn out archers that can be upgraded on demand. Obviously upgrades need to be carefully
The biggest loss in the above is Vassalage. Taking Vassalage + Longbows both into account might make Monarchy + Feudalism worth it, just skipping Guilds as too expensive. The nice thing though is that you can set research to 0% while saving the necessary gold, and at that point make the final determination.
The key with whatever path you choose for long-term victory is to identify the biggest obstacles, identify the minimum requirements you need to overcome the obstacles, identify the critical path and limiting factors (commerce, hammers, etc.) and cut out any fat that does not help you achieve the necessary objectives.
Settle at least that gold city and maybe the rice city.
Produce more military
Produce at least 2 more workers
Build a library in Karlabos and work 2 scientist.
Keep an eye on Shallow's attack plans
Medium:
Conquer Lighthouse city from RFS
Settle the gems spot
Pop a great scientist in Karlabos
Long:
Build up a defensive position near the gold, gems, Karlabos and the Lighthouse city from RFS
Use the marble for some wonders
Maybe build the Great Lighthouse and Collossus
I think you may want to increase your worker yield. We probably need 3 more in the next 10-12 turns and 5 more in the next 20 turns, especially since we're planning on adding 3 more cities in that time frame. We will also have at least 11 additional population (2 from each new city at least and at least 1 from the ivory).
As for rice and gold city: how soon together can you found them? If you do them 1 after another, you can ensure you have the rice available for growth and can share farms -- as those sites will need a LOT of farming.
I'd say go rice first as that city is less exposed and more valuable short term. Then grab the gold.
That gems spot needs iron working and strong defense. It also probably wants another city sharing the cow with Karlabos.
As for long-term goals: do we need wonders? Or do we just want to go take them from someone else?
Now to Cornflake's plan:
This is a really good representation of the thought-process that goes into high-level play. The long-term vector is really good; my concern would be that it requires we pursue our strongest rivals first, as opposed to using overwhelming force on a weaker rival. I feel like we should start war-prepping against RFS and eat him first, then use the double-size empire to take down someone else.
I think evil plan 2, heading to guilds, would be something I have never even considered before. I'd like to try it.
So now the question is: can we oracle Machinery? I think early machinery would let us eat someone else's lunch with trebs and CKN.
Work has been picking up lately which leaves me with less time to plan. Charriu, what aspects of planning can we help with?
And holy crap: someone has 54 food! Let us complain about the map. Our max food with 4 cities is like 44. I know he has 1 more spot but ... that is some better food tiles than we got.
I looked at your plan, Cornflakes, and it's really tempting, but I think I'm not ready for it. Here are my reasons:
I actually don't want to stop research, because I want to learn more about the later parts of RtR in MP.
I'm not that confident in my ability to make this plan happen.
It feels like a high gamble to me. That does not mean that I find the plan bad, I'm just not up for that risk.
But I agree with your overall opinion about Tokugawa. To gain an advantage I have to eat someone.
(August 7th, 2018, 11:03)Cornflakes Wrote: The key with whatever path you choose for long-term victory is to identify the biggest obstacles, identify the minimum requirements you need to overcome the obstacles, identify the critical path and limiting factors (commerce, hammers, etc.) and cut out any fat that does not help you achieve the necessary objectives.
That's a very good maxim and I will try to adapt it.
(August 7th, 2018, 12:40)Zalson Wrote: I think you may want to increase your worker yield. We probably need 3 more in the next 10-12 turns and 5 more in the next 20 turns, especially since we're planning on adding 3 more cities in that time frame. We will also have at least 11 additional population (2 from each new city at least and at least 1 from the ivory).
My current plan has me produce a worker in Karlabos in T76 and one in Siren in T73. I will look how I can speed things up there.
(August 7th, 2018, 12:40)Zalson Wrote: As for rice and gold city: how soon together can you found them? If you do them 1 after another, you can ensure you have the rice available for growth and can share farms -- as those sites will need a LOT of farming.
According to my current plan I can settle the 5th city rice on T70 or gold on T71 and the 6th city rice on T74 and gold on T75.
(August 7th, 2018, 12:40)Zalson Wrote: I'd say go rice first as that city is less exposed and more valuable short term. Then grab the gold.
I think this needs to be deceided as soon as I have vision on the region again in T67
(August 7th, 2018, 12:40)Zalson Wrote: That gems spot needs iron working and strong defense. It also probably wants another city sharing the cow with Karlabos.
That info will go into my new dotmap
(August 7th, 2018, 12:40)Zalson Wrote: As for long-term goals: do we need wonders? Or do we just want to go take them from someone else?
I just wanted to bring it up and think about any wonders that would be interesting. Also these are the wonders that use marble:
The Great Library
The Oracle
The Parthenon
The Sistine Chapel
The Temple of Artemis
Versailles
Hermitage
Heroic Epic
National Epic
(August 7th, 2018, 12:40)Zalson Wrote: This is a really good representation of the thought-process that goes into high-level play. The long-term vector is really good; my concern would be that it requires we pursue our strongest rivals first, as opposed to using overwhelming force on a weaker rival. I feel like we should start war-prepping against RFS and eat him first, then use the double-size empire to take down someone else.
I think taking RFS land is easier to take and to integrate into our empire. A war against the northern players is harder right now, because of the huge distance to them.
(August 7th, 2018, 12:40)Zalson Wrote: So now the question is: can we oracle Machinery? I think early machinery would let us eat someone else's lunch with trebs and CKN.
Not only does it let us eat someone, we could also need those CKNs against any praetorians from Coeurva.
(August 7th, 2018, 12:40)Zalson Wrote: Work has been picking up lately which leaves me with less time to plan. Charriu, what aspects of planning can we help with?
That's absolutely no problem. I really appreciate the input you two provide, as it forces me to think more about my decisions. Back in PB39 it felt a bit lonely sometimes, when I wrote my reports.
(August 7th, 2018, 12:44)Zalson Wrote: And holy crap: someone has 54 food! Let us complain about the map. Our max food with 4 cities is like 44. I know he has 1 more spot but ... that is some better food tiles than we got.
That someone must be Coeurva. I actually don't like to complain about the map. Actually I appreciate the fact that the map is not as lush as the one in PB39. It feels more like a map you would get from the normal map algorithm. I also have 2 mines and if I had build 2 farms instead I would have 48 food now, so the difference is not that big.
Quote:I actually don't want to stop research, because I want to learn more about the later parts of RtR in MP.
I just want to say that with this plan, we definitely would not stop research. We would just be attempting a knight rush as opposed to a more traditional path with currency and civil service and code of laws.
I think we may want to pit stop at Math/Currency just to ensure a more rapid approach.
Unless we managed to obtain a concession, we will get into the late game after eating RFS and, potentially, Magic Science.
Really we may want to just attempt to attack RFS-81 early.
Finally, (last comment): we need to prioritize monarchy and growing the capital and Wind Raptor very tall. A lot of mackoti's/TBS/OHF's success is related to their successful application of tall and wide. They pick a few cities to go very tall, usually the core. Then they use the other cities to whip out units and expansion.
