RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Hatshepsut / India

[regoarrarr]

The problem is the Globe Theatre don't get any discount from marble, stone or ... anything

Wow I always thought it worked with marble. But you are correct. So maybe 6 or 7 whips and a few chops.

Or maybe this is a bad idea.

[regoarrarr]

Email from Broker to the G5

Hello all

I just was thinking and wanted to send an email to the group. We have some dicey issues coming up in the near future and I was wondering how we will handle them as a group.

Now I understand that the group was not intended to be a massive alliance from the beginning but I think recent events have pushed us into a need to operate more closely for the betterment of all.

1) It is evident that Krill has gathered the other 6 into an alliance with the purpose of eliminating us. Their name for us is the UTA and their name for themselves is the NUTA seems an obvious charter.

2) Krill is planing on an attack on the lins probably in the next 20 turns with the hopes of crushing one of our group and by extension the whole group. I am hopeing he is being over confident and underestimating our abilities. I am sending approx 10 HA's to aid in the defense and hopefully Sunrise will have some troops available as well as his great tactical knowledge. If we can cause this conflict to stalemate I believe that is a win. Krill's economy will have to crash both due to size and a large army so he wont be teching very well. This will be a pivotal battle but one I think we have a decent chance of winning.

3) Ruff courted us then backed out and seems to be firmly in the camp of the G6(NUTA) but still has aggressive preats. They will need to go somewhere.

4) Imhotep has declined to renew the NAP with Regoarrarr and seems to be on a collision course with war. He is also a MP player so he is a threat although his civ is small.

5)Dan and Sam are by far the largest and best teching civs in our group as they did a far better job of early expansion. I believe we will need to lean on them until us other 3 catch up abit. Unfortunately Lins will be bogged down in a war and possibly sunrise also. I on the other hand don't really have a border threat and plan to do some aggressive growth. I have 5 cities and once the road is completed I can improve them quickly. 3 are solid production sites for units, 1 is a very nice commerce city and 1 is a hybrid so in the near future I hope to contribute much more.

6) I fear that based on item 5 the NUTA will try to damage Sam or Dan with an attack. Imhotep and Shady are close Ruff can send troops either way. I am unsure on Dsp but MH/Kodi is in the same boat I am in ie the back lines no direct threats and they are gathering wonders. we could very well have a two front war on our hands. With Krill being aggressive on our side I don't know what if any help we can send militarily. But fortunately you both have cities and pop to slave a defense if necessary. I believe we should be looking for it.

This brings me to techs I think Machinery and CS are more important than the others. I will tech Aest/Lit as Sunrise said but if cash is needed to keep the two main techs running I will pause research and send the cash.

Basically with all of these forces aligned against us we need to stick together until we can break them. Some civs may carry a larger burden then others at times but if one falls all fall and that wont be good for any of us.

These are just some of my thoughts that I wanted to share.

[Mortius]

Or maybe this is a bad idea.

The idea with the Globe Theatre is very good, but don't hamper the city before you can get it.
It's very easy to build the Globe in a city with two food resources. Fish and clams are +7 food (with lighthouse). You can put one turn production into axe or spear and then whip it for 2 pop, with overflow into the Globe, after 4 turns the city grows back to 4 pop and repeat. At the end you will have the Globe and 6-8 troops. If you can chop some forests it's even better.

When you finally build the Globe, the city become the Slaughterhouse, and you will train 1 troop every 2 turns (avarage).

[regoarrarr]

Chat with ZPV

(10:08) me: there?
(10:08) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: hi. Yes
(10:08) me: how's it going?
(10:08) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: not too badly. Comm
(10:08) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: *Command Central is guarded only by a warrior
(10:09) me: nice
(10:09) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: shady's military is paper thin, and his immortal can't see my NCs
(10:09) me: how many are you up to?
(10:09) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: about 7 or 8 IIRC
(10:09) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: Hadrumentum can build 2 per 3 turns I think
(10:10) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: and Carthage is good too. Hippo is chopping madly
(10:10) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I killed a barb axe with one, it's on 7/8 XP
(10:10) me: excellent
(10:11) me: you may have seen that he is getting iron from ruff and horse from krill
(10:11) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: That's strange. Doesn't he already have horses? Oh well. All I'm afraid of is if he starts whipping elephants everywhere
(10:12) me: yeah
(10:12) me: i did see 1 spear in the castle
(10:12) me: i mean "The Castle"
(10:12) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: 1 spear does not a horde defeat
(10:12) me: i know
(10:12) me: i have seen 1 HA, 2 immortals, 1 archer, 1 axe and 1 spear
(10:13) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: he also has a skirmisher
(10:13) me: just to keep you updated
(10:13) me: ah nice
(10:13) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: thanks
(10:13) me: was it him that was wanting to colleect a UU from every civ?
(10:13) me: someone was
(10:13) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: yeah
(10:13) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: he said so in the public thread
(10:14) me: cool
(10:15) me: well you'll be "giving him" some num cavs :-D
(10:16) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: your worker on the forested hill near hippo and fairfield, is there any chance he could build a road? That will help me sneak past any Persian scouts in the area.
(10:16) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I don't want to give the game away by amassing troops within his sight
(10:17) me: sure
(10:17) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: thanks
(10:19) me: i am glad to see that you are still feeling optimistic.
(10:19) me: i have been getting worried
(10:20) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: why?
(10:20) me: just seeing all these units of his romaing around
(10:20) me: and the spear
(10:20) me: and just worrying that you'll decide that you can't / won't do it
(10:20) me: and all of my plans for the game have been kind of going under the impression that he will be eliminated
(10:20) me: and so if he isn't, then that screws up everything
(10:20) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I haven't seen a large increase in his power graph. I think he's expecting to fight at some point, but not just yet.
(10:21) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: If he is not eliminated, he should at least be down to OCC or 2CC.
(10:22) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: At which point, he isn't a threat to your expansion, although it may make more sense to wait for advance troops, if he holes up in a hill city
(10:22) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: *advanced troops
(10:23) me: well we should have maces in 8 turns or so, right?
(10:23) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: yeah
(10:23) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: as long as I get some gold to fund my research, I can have Machinery in 7
(10:23) me: 7 from the rolled over turn?
(10:24) me: i am also 7 from the rolled over turn
(10:24) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: yeah, one turn invested
(10:24) me: but will need about 150g
(10:24) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I need the same amount, maybe 160g
(10:24) me: yeah
(10:24) me: i think that should be doable
(10:25) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: so ideally I don't want to whip Carthage any more, so it can grow into its commerce tiles
(10:25) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: but that's OK, as it has hills to work until my calendar resources are hooked up
(10:25) me: yeah
(10:25) me: i got a silk hooked up and am heading towards the dyes and bananas
(10:26) me: i had to detour 3 turns to build a rooad conncting me and shadyforce near green twp
(10:26) me: so that hopefully i get his 6 cities trade routes
(10:26) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: where's green?
(10:26) me: north of fairfield
(10:26) me: NW of shady's city The Castle
(10:26) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: ok. That makes sense. Is it on a hill?
(10:26) me: this road that i'm building iis actually in his territory
(10:27) me: yes jungle hill which is why it was 3 turns
(10:27) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: the city
(10:27) me: oh
(10:27) me: yes i think so
(10:27) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: ok
(10:27) me: yes it is - i checked my spoiler thread
(10:27) me: it had some pics i did yesterday
(10:27) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: ok, thanks
(10:27) me: it is 7E 2N of hippo
(10:28) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I'll see it soon with my explorer
(10:28) me: i think you've already seen it
(10:28) me: it's the one with the corn and ivory
(10:28) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: the Castle has the corn and Ivory
(10:28) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: does green have those as well?
(10:30) me: oh sorry i thought you were talking about the castle
(10:31) me: green has fish copper and ivory
(10:31) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: no, I know the castle
(10:31) me: that's where the HG is
(10:31) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: green is your city?
(10:31) me: yes
(10:31) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: ah, ok
(10:31) me: yeah - no need to scout that out! >
(10:33) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: well, I'll be covering my troops with an explorer in any case. If he looks quickly and just sees an explorer, (instead of mousing over and seeing the NCs hidden underneath), that gives me a small advantage
(10:33) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: btw, are you #2 in GNP?
(10:33) me: i think so
(10:34) me: i thought i was going to get past you when i went up over 90bpt
(10:34) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: as seen on the demographics screen
(10:34) me: but then you went up over 100
(10:34) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: putting the 5 of us into bureaucracy will help us overcome the NUTAs
(10:35) me: but they'll be there before too long
(10:35) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: true, although it will take longer if they can't match our research
(10:35) me: right
(10:35) me: plus they don't have the pre-req of feudalism that i do
(10:35) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: exactly
(10:38) me: so at any point do you think it makes sense to share with the other 3 that hopefully shady will not be a factor?
(10:38) me: i don't see the need
(10:38) me: but i was unsure how best to respond to broker's most recent email
(10:38) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I think we should state that we are preparing/prepared for war with him. We don't need to elaborate more than that
(10:39) me: okay
(10:39) me: i'll let you word that
(10:39) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: do you want me to leave you out of it? IMO that would seem a little dodgy, since you are his closest neighbour
(10:40) me: nah you can just say that we have talked about it and we think that we are in a good place and are keeping our eye on him.
(10:40) me: something like that
(10:40) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: ok
(10:40) me: i mean we HAVE been talking about it since like turn 20
(10:40) me:
(10:40) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I think I'll mention that you are planning to use your UU against him
(10:41) me: well i did road towards his city!
(10:41) me: and i'm roading that one hill!
(10:41) me: yeah yeah!

[regoarrarr]

Nice reply from shadyforce

I appreciate that you seem to be in builder mode (congrats on new cities + HG coup) and I assure you I am as well but when I have a city that closely borders two civs that are on 'the other side' it would be folly of me not to have a few units in the area at the very least to dissuade an attack. And it also seems to be making you more eager than ever to try and seek friendship/cooperation between us which can't be a bad thing!

Actually, funny story: I had been sending email to ZPV and he wasn't replying much so I dispatched Pestilence to snoop around near his border. He was instantly on the phone (metaphorically speaking) saying hello and asking about his intentions - which was all I wanted.

Anyway I would think my mounted units are much less of a threat in your territory than they would be in my own territory right on your border or perhaps on/near that road Carolyn is building or on that tile 2SE of Fairfield. But I'm not that sorry that my units in the area have you (and maybe ZPV) a little on edge, because it seems to be working to my advantage. As I said before, I gotta keep you on your toes.

It's unfortunate that we've found ourselves on different sides of the fence. I would have liked to work with you as an ally but the state of the game makes that impossible. You have chosen your side and I am on my side out of necessity - it's the only way to keep up.

I have played my fair share of Diplomacy tournaments as well. And while Civ is less cut-throat than our Avalon Hill counterpart, there are still plenty of lessons to be learned. Always talk to everyone, even those on 'the other side' because there will always eventually be an opportunity to work with them if/when the power structure of the game changes and alliances can change.

But while I appreciate your frequent communication, you are still sounding like someone who is 'fishing for information'. Maybe that's just my paranoia but lets put it this way: yet again you have asked what I am researching, I have replied and yet you do not respond to my counter-question about what you are researching. And when I read your messages asking of a way to mentain friendship and good relations, all I read is "how can I ensure you don't attack me".

I understand your concern but the truth is, as long as we are on different sides there will always be tension. The way to ensure I don't attack you is by doing exactly what you said: change the dynamic of the game's alliances such that you and I can be allies rather than on different sides of the game's divide. As I said, I'm stuck on this side out of necessity but perhaps you have the power to shake things up.

If you are genuine about wanting to be on my side then find a way to shake up the game's current alliance dynamic and come to me with a real proposal. I will do whatever I can to help you out and make it worth your while if it gets us onto the same winning side rather than being on different sides of a stalemate.

and my reply

Good to hear from you and I was glad to see some substance to your email. And I don't know that I am more eager than ever in seeking you out. Though maybe I am - but at least to myself this is just general friendliness. But your story about ZPV was definitely funny :-) - I have found him also to be pretty un-responsive diplomatically.

And you are correct that your units are not as threatening as they could be. I am sure you will understand (and probably be glad to see such a reaction!) but I will be moving a few more units to that theater.

As for what I am researching, you are correct that I withheld that information. I feel like probably our days of sharing that information have come to an end, at least as long as we stay in the current meta-game dynamic. For example, if I say I'm researching Theology, then maybe that gets passed on so someone tries to race me to Christianity. Or if I'm researching CS or Machinery, maybe the (imaginary?) plans to attack me get ramped up so as to hit before I get maces. Or if I'm researching Aesthetics and Literature, that gets passed on to m-h so he makes sure to grab the Great Library before I do. Without understanding the dynamics of the "NUTA" I'm not sure I would feel right in sharing that information. And I can understand why you might not want to share those dynamics.

So how do we shake up the current dynamic? In your email, you made it out to seem like I would be the one to need to shake it up? That you didn't really feel like you had the "power to shake things up"? Or do you feel like there is some course of action that you and I, acting either separately or together, could take?

[regoarrarr]

Some nice morning diplomacy

First of all - my reply to the G5

Krill's power is definitely going up, so I think it is likely that he is going to be sending things. The whens and the wheres are still up in the air. I have noted too that he has stopped building new cities (no new ones in the past 5-10 turns). You will also have noted that M-H built the Great Library last turn, apparently from scratch!?! I did not see any engineer born from the Pyramids / GW, though maybe I missed it.

So it sounds like we are on the same page with ZPV and I researching Machinery and CS (both due on T104 or thereabouts I believe). I am going to need about 41 gpt starting next turn (T98) as my reserves will have run out.

I know we talked about the Lins doing Theology and Broker doing Aest / Lit. Is that what you guys are planning? If so, what are your approximate ETAs? I know you guys are very busy with the Krill factor, but it would be great for at least Aesthetics to be done by T104 so that I (or someone) could do Drama - I could really use Drama to set up a great Globe Theater whipping city.

Thoughts?

Email coming in from Ruff

Thx for the email. You were right up until the part where you surmised that I went back to the others to get a better deal. What happened was that I requested tech trades (and sent them mono) at the beginning of T94 (at this point, I am still thinking if I really want to throw my lot in with you - and if that is the type of game that I want to play).

Anyway, T94 gets reloaded - but it appears to me to be a brand new turn (I didn't see the post about the reload) and I thought they had all rejected my tech deals. I say "right - stuff you guys" and declare war ... then find out that it is a reload and I have mis-read the situation. So, here I am, apparently frozen out of tech trades with them and now at war with my old group ...

AND I still don't know if I this is the type of game I want to play.

More background - I don't play much MP (pbem games but those are pretty much SP games against humans - you can treat them that way until everyone else gangs up on you and then it gets really fun). I have been looking for a MP game where I just sit in the back ground and tech my heart out and leave the fighting up to the others.

Well - why don't I go that option here with Aggressive Rome - not exactly how I thought this game would play out but that is what is happening at the moment.

So - summary - it does look like it is turning into one giant 5v6 game - does everyone what that? No idea. Is this the way it will play out? No idea - will have to wait and see.

Does that help?

Ruff

and my reply

Ruff,

Thanks for the email. I have to say, I like that scenario better.

So, are you at liberty to say at all why you chose the other folks versus sticking with us? Even without being a "heavy", there's still plenty of room for you on the "good" side :-). Obviously as a sort of swing vote, you can drive a pretty good bargain. Of course, the flip side of that is swing votes who dither too much tend to end up getting frozen out by both sides....

So a 5v6 seems pretty unstable - how do you see this playing out, and how can you and I use that to our advantage?

Little note to M-H

Hey M-H and Kodii

Congrats on that big ol library! I have to say I was not expecting it that soon! I hadn't even seen that you had picked up Literature, as I am just a crude savage that does not even know the secrets of Aesthetics. (Personally, I enjoy art for art's sake, so maybe that's it <g>)

So I was in the game last night and noticed that you and I are connected for resources. Any idea how that is? I thought you guys were pretty far away from me, like on the other side of the world!

And a message out to Krill

Hey Krill and Memphus,

How are things going. Seems like quite a stack you guys must be forming up, judging by your power increase, your lack of founding any new cities, and your whipping (I think I have counted 8 in the past 5 turns?) Obviously I don't really expect you to comment on that, though if you feel like there are avenues of discussion that we can have that would be productive to both of us, I'm here.

I did want to let you know that I will likely be canceling our NAP / OB arrangement soon. I probably would have cancelled it already, but I wanted to extend WM#1 the quechua some hospitality, and at least let him look around our empire, since you were kind and let me do the same in your lands. But just as you asked me to eventually leave, I feel the time is right for WM1 to head on his merry way. If you are heading in a particular direction, I would be happy to provide directions.

So, I thought that you and I might be in a unique position to talk about where we seem to have put ourselves in this particular game. I have (Demo game spoiler snipped)

(As an aside, just a reminder (to myself as much as you) but if you post this in your spoiler thread, make sure to remove any SANCTA related things before you post as you never know what kind of spies might be reading it!)

But where are we now? The game appears to have devolved into a 5v6 alliance that is probably on fairly equal ground. True, there are only 5 of us, but we had a bit of a head start on techs. On the other hand, you can get cheaper research by following in our footsteps.

This was not exactly the scenario I was hoping for. Ideally, it would have been nice to really leave some civs in the dust and get a true leg up. I am disappointed (though not surprised) that the other 6 of you were able to form such a good counter. I have to give you (or whoever it was) credit for being able to organize things.

So anyways, I am not sure what I am saying or offering. I don't feel like there is anything I can offer at this point that you would be interested in, but I just felt like it was worthwhile to continue to have some good communications, because that could change at some point. I can definitely see several scenarios where you and I could take the lead on kind of "re-organizing" the alliance structure in this game, if that makes sense. And all it will take is (Demo game spoiler snipped).

(That last part was a joke if you couldn't tell :-) ). But I'm definitely serious about wanting to continue dialogue with you. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

[regoarrarr]

So here's a question for any LURKERS out there.

Are these pasted in conversations useful? I put them in here for a few reasons - just to track them all in one place, to keep Dantski in the loop, and for lurker enjoyment.

But I know that it also can be hard to keep up with a bunch of text just thrown in.

So if anyone has any suggestions for improving the reporting, just let me know.

[Cyneheard]

I like having the diplo communications, chats and emails. Chats can be hard to follow, especially when they're like 200 lines, but still are very welcome; summaries of chats are appreciated, as well as your reactions when others email.
Screenshots are nice, especially a state-of-the-empire every 10 turns or so, but I'm more interested in the diplomacy side of things than the micromanagement side.

[Jabah]

I second Cyneheard, all this 'behind the curtain' discussions are very nice to have.

Reading them is indeed sometimes a bit tricky especially when real names / civ names / leader names are thrown in a mix. But now with experience and with a diplo that seems to be a bit more set up, it is quite understandable

[having colorcode lines for each person in chat (can't remember is you are using it) does also help a lot]

[zakalwe]

A more zoomed out screenshot showing where you are in relation to your neighbors would be great.

I often find myself somewhat frustrated and wanting to "scroll" the screenshots because I'm curious what lies next to the city/area that's being shown.