American Politics Discussion Thread

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Point taken, but I'll adjust that a bit.  The Democrats think that every scenario is to expand government intrusion.  That's what I'm against.  I don't care so much about Covid itself, as I do about upholding the general principle of liberty and government staying the hell out of the way.  Five or six digits of Covid deaths is a tragedy, but I'll pay that price to sustain and preserve the liberties and livelihoods of 330,000,000.

Unfortunately, as I've said before, what you call liberty, I call rhetoric and hot air. The republican and democrat parties have been complicit in curbing civil liberties at every step of the way since 9/11. Patriot act, the NSA, creation of DoHS, suppression of press freedoms by threats and encouraging self-censorship, massive coverups regarding the actions of the military in Iraq and Afghanistan, suppression of protests (see: police killings, Bloomberg at Zuccotti park), suppression of labor strikes from Reagan to Obama, I can go on and on. Not to mention the suppression of liberties of foreign nationals in their own territory, which our republic-as-empire is so fond of doing.

I agree that the "deplorable" rhetoric isn't very helpful, though.

[darrelljs]

GeneralKilCavalry you make me think I wasn't the only one that voted for Gary Johnson in 2016 .

Darrell

[Gustaran]

This is all true and correct... but the problem is that the media and government narrative isn't going to follow that.  If it's 50% effective, that isn't good enough, 85k deaths isn't going to be acceptable where 170k wasn't.  And so we're stuck with the masks and distancing and closed borders forever.

It's the question what 50% effective means - if it prevents 50% of infections, we would be a big step closer to the path to herd immunity. I also don't see the need to think in these extreme categories: According to the web, there are currently 184 vaccine projects underway. Several big ones have already advanced to phase 3 and could be available around the end of the year. China and Russia have already started the (risky) process of vaccinating a large number of people. The projection by the German government estimates complete availability for German citizens no later than summer 2021. At the same time, we see new antiviral drugs such as Remdesivir emerge and being used.

Of course, we can discuss hypothetical doomsday scenarios of neverending social distancing, but frankly: Given the scientific information we have today that seems very unlikely. It's certainly no excuse to ditch all the social distancing rules now, "because a vaccine might not be 100% effective".
I think we can all afford to wait a few more months and wait for some actual study results. If we are in the same situation a year from now, alternative strategies would have to be discussed, but I see not point in doing that at this point in time.

[T-hawk]

To be clear - I'm not at all saying that an imperfect vaccine means we must keep up the masks and distancing shit forever.  We could release that now as far as I'm concerned.

I'm saying that an imperfect vaccine won't be enough to placate the scaremongering media and those who let themselves be frightened by it.  They'll invent any narratives they can to keep up the climate of fear and that's what the politics will follow. It's political because Trump is the only one with the balls not to listen to the scaremongering.

I'm completely optimistic that the real threat of Covid-19 will pass, either by herd resistance or vaccine -- but completely pessimistic that we'll ever get rid of the contagion theater.  We're still doing all the airport security BS decades after the last incident.

We've already been "waiting a few more months" many times over.  Stop this insanity now.  The lockdowns are now worse than Covid itself.  That's now gone on to the point of destroying a year of schooling for countless millions of students.  There was a report that Canada now has over a year of backlog of delayed cancer screenings.  I personally had to go three months without necessary dental work.  These are real documentable enumerable costs of life, not even the soft stuff about mental health or generalized economic terms.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

GeneralKilCavalry you make me think I wasn't the only one that voted for Gary Johnson in 2016 .

Darrell

Oh, don't confuse my disdain for the two party system and the actions of the two parties within it as an endorsement for the libertarian party. I'm very much in disagreement with the pro-business and anti-labor sentiments they espouse. Though, I do respect their stance on many social issues and principled stance on all issues.

[superdeath]

Libertarian party is anti-labor? Are they stupid or just plain ignorant?

[Amicalola]

We've already been "waiting a few more months" many times over.  Stop this insanity now.  The lockdowns are now worse than Covid itself.  That's now gone on to the point of destroying a year of schooling for countless millions of students.  There was a report that Canada now has over a year of backlog of delayed cancer screenings.  I personally had to go three months without necessary dental work.  These are real documentable enumerable costs of life, not even the soft stuff about mental health or generalized economic terms.

I also have experience with personal cost of lockdown, as I had to delay shoulder surgery for a couple of months. It Really Sucked. I wonder if the problem in the American countries is you've been in a kind of pseudo-lockdown, where plenty of business (e.g. dentists) have shut or at least greatly reduced in person activities, and it's enough to seriously affect the ability for people to get things done, but not enough of a lockdown that the virus is actually being stopped. Contrast to here, or NZ, where we had (from what I can tell) a far harsher lockdown for about 2 months, but everything has been open everywhere except Victoria (even that's on track to, now) since then because there's essentially no virus. 

There are doubtless way more factors than that, but I wonder if it's part of your understandable lockdown fatigue.

[Amicalola]

Libertarian party is anti-labor? Are they stupid or just plain ignorant?

Anti-union/min-wage and anti-labor are essentially synonymous in most western countries other than the States.

[superdeath]

Libertarian party is anti-labor? Are they stupid or just plain ignorant?

Anti-union/min-wage and anti-labor are essentially synonymous in most western countries other than the States.

I will say im a bit bias as my union is one of the best ones ( not without its faults of course )

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Libertarian party is anti-labor? Are they stupid or just plain ignorant?

Anti-union/min-wage and anti-labor are essentially synonymous in most western countries other than the States.

I will say im a bit bias as my union is one of the best ones ( not without its faults of course )

Yeah, the libertarian position is generally anti-union. Their facade of being against mandatory dues for some moral reason is really just their pro-business greed talking. They think unions shouldn't have any privileges or protections, which is an absolutely naive stance given the long history of labor struggles in this country. Battle of Blair Mountain springs to mind immediately. They don't recognize that the "free market" is not a democratic institution, since in reality, you don't have a great deal of options of where to sell your labor (and you have to do it urgently, or you starve). On the other hand, what is one single job opening to a business?

It goes against the conservative/libertarian dogma of individual responsibility (which is just their excuse for exploiting people).