American Politics Discussion Thread

[darrelljs]

Their facade of being against mandatory dues for some moral reason is really just their pro-business greed talking.

Evidence? Gary was a protest vote on my part, so I’m not exactly an expert here, but Google tells me:

Libertarians think about unions the way they think about most social organizations: that they should not be banned, nor subsidized by the government. There's nothing wrong with people banding together to sell their labor, just as there is nothing wrong with pooling capital to create or invest in firms.

Libertarians have problems with laws about unions, such as ones that require firms to negotiate with a union that is designated by the state as the agent of the "bargaining unit." Libertarians oppose both laws banning contracts with individuals that prohibit union membership and ones that mandate a "closed shop" or "agency shop." If a union has the market power to negotiate a situation like that, then more power to it! Libertarians don't support "right to work" laws, as a result.

Darrell

[MJW (ya that one)]

GKC, voting Johnson in 2016 as a protest vote doesn't mean anything because the Green candidate was a joke (had an arrest warrant on her) and everyone else was negligible too.

[Gustaran]

We've already been "waiting a few more months" many times over.  Stop this insanity now.  

All credible sources gave an estimate of 12-18 months until a vaccine would be ready. If you are talking about the duration of the restrictions, these are obviously not only dependent on time, but on case numbers and R0 and most importantly the compliance of the population. If the lockdown and social distancing isn't done properly, of course the measures have to stay in place - what else did you expect? "Ok, half the people didn't wear masks, cases haven't declined enough, R0 is still too high, cases can't be traced, but you said it would only take 2 months, so let's open everything back up again?"

That's now gone on to the point of destroying a year of schooling for countless millions of students.

I love how every right-wing politician who didn't give a f*ck about the public school system a year ago is suddenly concerned about the well-being of American students. Let's just remember for a moment that Trump nominated Betsy DeVos as Secretary of Education, who was so unpopular and incompetent that she needed the vote of the Vice President for confirmation for the first time in history.
One could also ask the question: Why is there no proper distance learning system in place? Why should teachers and students risk their health and lives because Trump wants to improve his re-election chances? Again: Schools should of course be opened, but only once the case numbers indicate it is reasonable to do so and there is a plan in place (masks mandatory inside classrooms, fixed groups learning together, etc).

I personally had to go three months without necessary dental work.

Ah, there is the problem. A good example that the whole "freedom" and "I do only what's in my best interest" thing occasionally backfires. Trump downplayed the virus to increase his election chances. Some people decided that exercising their "freedom" meant not wearing masks, ignoring the rules and going to bars when they felt like it. One ripple effect is that other people have to wait for the dentist appointment they need. But instead of blaming an egoistical world view that doesn't care about the needs of other people, you complain about the implemented scientific measures to fight the pandemic.

[ipecac]

All credible sources gave an estimate of 12-18 months until a vaccine would be ready.

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Within that time period most countries would be at or close to herd immunity. On reasonable assumptions, when a vaccine arrives it will be irrelevant on the societal level.

The priority should be to mitigate economic damage by reaching herd immunity as fast as is feasible. Yes, people are going to die, but they are going to die anyway.

[Mjmd]

Feel free to sacrifice yourself and your loved ones to that chance. The main reason the death rate in US isn't as high is we have good health care. What happens when that breaks down being overwhelmed.

The solution would be to have done it right the first time like many other countries, but that was never gone to happen in the US.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

All credible sources gave an estimate of 12-18 months until a vaccine would be ready.

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Within that time period most countries would be at or close to herd immunity. On reasonable assumptions, when a vaccine arrives it will be irrelevant on the societal level.

The priority should be to mitigate economic damage by reaching herd immunity as fast as is feasible. Yes, people are going to die, but they are going to die anyway.

Russia is slowly but surely proceeding with its vaccination programme. China has had a vaccine for military use ready some time ago, and will also soon be preparing one for the general population. I see no reason for pessimism either way - a vaccine that might cause severe reactions in every thousandth person is far less destructive than death in some percent of the population.

[ipecac]

Russia is slowly but surely proceeding with its vaccination programme. China has had a vaccine for military use ready some time ago, and will also soon be preparing one for the general population.

The West is not going to trust those vaccines, and is definitely not going to accept the idea that they and their democracies are massively lagging behind and basically failing while the evil dictatorships of Russia and China are doing fine.

Meanwhile, what passes for a plan is to come up with more and more reasons to extend lockdown until herd immunity is inevitably reached anyway before a Western vaccine is projected to arrive. Previously the rationale was to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed, that hasn't happened so they must have some new excuses.

[AdrienIer]

Russia is slowly but surely proceeding with its vaccination programme. China has had a vaccine for military use ready some time ago, and will also soon be preparing one for the general population.

The West is not going to trust those vaccines, and is definitely not going to accept the idea that they and their democracies are massively lagging behind and basically failing while the evil dictatorships of Russia and China are doing fine.

Meanwhile, what passes for a plan is to come up with more and more reasons to extend lockdown until herd immunity is inevitably reached anyway before a Western vaccine is projected to arrive. Previously the rationale was to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed, that hasn't happened so they must have some new excuses.

If a vaccine is accepted by the medical community, no one will care where it comes from.

Hospitals WERE overwhelmed in many places. Italy was the worst case for that.

[T-hawk]

A vaccine doesn't have to be perfectly safe and exhaustively tested. It merely has to reduce serious cases by less than its own side effects to be a net positive. That's the playbook for Russia and China which understand such things. The American media and too much of the public doesn't.

[ipecac]

If a vaccine is accepted by the medical community, no one will care where it comes from.

FFS, hydroxychloroquinine was a standard treatment in China and South Korea by Feburary, but it became politicised in the West.

Hospitals WERE overwhelmed in many places. Italy was the worst case for that.

Currently they're not, and in many places the lockdown continues. What are the latest excuses?