[PB75] Newbfragar and Rusty's Beginner's Guide to Civ4

[Rusten]

Yeah, IDK what's going through the heads of the people who think that building is OK. Charriu suggesting and implementing it is one thing, but the poll in his thread is still 50/50 about nerfing it. Getting GPP for free from a building you want to get anyway that early is just bonkers. Broken.

[Miguelito]

Looking forward to the two of you proving it
How would you feel about it if it was 1GPP?

[naufragar]

Huh. I had missed that you had made a thread about Rome and America, Miguelito. Was away from the site.

Rusten's better at seeing the big picture, but off the top of my head I like that reducing the GPP to +1 significantly reduces the synergy with Phi. As it stands, Phi America gets +5GPP everywhere, whereas with the nerf it would only get +2GPP. (Rereading that CtH thread, I forgot that Mjmd was America in that game. Will need to reread his thread. Although he didn't pair it with Philosophical? ) But to tell the truth, I'm sad Charriu swapped the unique library with that wonderful Woody1/Guerilla1 musket. I was going to choose that next snake pick game I played.

Looking forward to the two of you proving it

Ah, but there's the rub. The last time Rusten and I wanted to demonstrate a broken feature it was the Dutch unique naval unit, but the map we played turned out to have no oceans and the game ended on t75... Let's hope we're allowed to do more this game.

[Rusten]

Looking forward to the two of you proving it
How would you feel about it if it was 1GPP?

It would still be good at 1 GPP.

Whether we succeed or not isn't going to change my mind about whether the UB is broken. The biggest imbalances in games often arise when you give something "for free" (passively) in my experience. And this bonus is something you more or less get for free whereas other civs need to invest heavily for the same benefit*. If you play around it you can do crazy things, but it's going to be good even if you barely pay attention to it. Always generating value passively. Every turn. All you need to do is build a cost-efficient building.


*Excluding the fact that the blank GPP opens up new options too, which is completely unique to America.

[Rusten]

Just to elaborate a tiny bit, the main issue is the consistency. Picking Egypt for instance and getting a clean ancient/classical kill might have more potential, but that's not something you can rely on at the start of the game. You need horses, you need an unsuspecting (preferrably green) neighbour, and even then you might still fail. There's no failing with the American UB. Its extremely consistent whilst having a very high power level and that's oppressive to game balance.

[Amicalola]

I am catching up on some threads now that I finally have real internet again. I really enjoyed that oppo analysis - you know it was good when it makes you wish you were in the game to be featured in it. And I'm sure you would have had very nice things to say.

Some misc. comments:
- Totally agree with you all on the America building. Totally utterly broken. I would love to hear your thoughts on EXP vs. IMP though - I think EXP is much better, but I know you prefer IMP (for fun or strength?). Good grab.

- 'Kinder-civ' actually made me snort with laughter.

- Ginger's combo is good, but feels like a missed opportunity. Sury of the Ottomans or Washington of the Khmer are both much better. He's overloaded on happiness and underloaded on border-expansion and food (imo). But 'both of the aqueduct uniques + EXP are unironically broken and inexplicably ignored' is my civ hot take, so take it with a grain of salt.

- I've never thought about Civ6 like that, because I've never played it, because I read Sullla's anti-Civ5 reports at a very formative age and internalised the anti-1UPT rhetoric to an astonishing degree that I cannot shake no matter how hard I try. I actually thought that was a very interesting take though. To my mind, the people who enjoy Civ6 probably happily ignore those incomprehensible systems. But I know far too much about teleportation rules in Civ4 now, so that might not be true of the hardcore MP crowd...

[naufragar]

I am catching up on some threads now that I finally have real internet again. I really enjoyed that oppo analysis - you know it was good when it makes you wish you were in the game to be featured in it. And I'm sure you would have had very nice things to say.

Thanks, Amica! And yes, I would have nice things to say.  I thought it was funny when you said you were looking to learn from this thread after you'd already beaten me one or two times.

- 'Kinder-civ' actually made me snort with laughter.

I was waiting three and a half years for an opportunity to quote that guy's comment and make that joke. I'm not petty. 

- I've never thought about Civ6 like that, because I've never played it, because I read Sullla's anti-Civ5 reports at a very formative age and internalised the anti-1UPT rhetoric to an astonishing degree that I cannot shake no matter how hard I try. I actually thought that was a very interesting take though. To my mind, the people who enjoy Civ6 probably happily ignore those incomprehensible systems. But I know far too much about teleportation rules in Civ4 now, so that might not be true of the hardcore MP crowd...

Sullla can correct me, but I think the main thrust of his criticisms of Civ5 was that it was a stupid game. In its first iteration, all you wanted to do was spam size one cities. Then that was nerfed and in Civ5's final iteration all you wanted to do was build 4 cities and use internal trade routes. Civ5 always had one very simple dominant strategy. It was a stupid game (and I say this as someone who put 100 hours into it). (And ignoring T-hawk's science victory shenanigans.) 1UPT ties into that. The single most-repeated complaint about Civ4 has got to be about "stacks of doom." There are deep reasons new players complain about that (which we'll get to if we ever have to build an army ) so instead of untangling that mess, the Civ5 designers just cut the Gordian knot. I actually admire it. Dumbing down the Civ series was probably the best decision Firaxis ever made for themselves. I don't have the numbers, but Civ5 became the cash cow to end all cash cows. (Not that 1UPT is inherently dumb. Approximately one billion wargames use hexes and individual units.)

As far as I can tell, Civ6 freed players considerably. There's a lot more freedom to play the game.


But for your actual Civ4 comments!

Magic Science in PB69 finally made me a Baray believer. Pointing out that in many cities it was a 25-33% growth rate increase was mind blowing. I could see Exp being a sleeper pick. I think I grew so distrustful of Exp in RtR when it was just a worker bonus that I can't shake the prejudice.

As for Exp vs. Imp, I'm afraid I don't have numbers or anything. I just hate it when people steal my land and Imp makes that slightly less likely. 

[Rusten]

Peter was on our radar, and in general I like Exp a lot too. However, for this particular game I prefer Imp as its benefit comes in a little sooner than Exp, and as you'll see once this game gets going we have an early specific bottleneck to get through. You'll have to wait for the details on that one though.

We considered Pro for the same reason (early benefit), but Imp just feels good alongside Phi.

[naufragar]

However, for this particular game I prefer Imp as its benefit comes in a little sooner than Exp, and as you'll see once this game gets going we have an early specific bottleneck to get through.

Great General generation.

And we’re off! Settings in spoilers. (Pro tip: Check the settings before starting…)

A lovely new capital. Shame about all the plains everywhere.



Lesson Three: Worker First

After you found you capital city, you must start building a worker first. “Must?” Yes, must. You’ll hear people talk about how Civ4 is a “snowball” game, meaning that as the snowball starts rolling down the hill, it gets bigger and bigger by virtue of its own motion and mass. Building a worker first initiates the snowball. A warrior or a monument or a barracks, while all fine in themselves, do not at this moment start that snowball rolling.

Building a worker has a geometric effect on your growth because your next items will be built faster with improved tiles. (Remember tiles?) Everything you do after your first worker is done faster because of him.

This has some important knock-on effects. Because you’re building a worker to start, you want to have things for him to do. He gets the ability to improve various tiles from technologies, so your first technological objectives are to research the improvements for your tiles. Rusten and I are building Mining, because we want to mine our hills, and later we’ll probably research Hunting so as to build a camp on the deer tile to our north.

[Amicalola]

But what if I have a fish at my capital?