[Spoilers] Scraping the bottom of the barrel: Lurker's thread

[Mardoc]

By the by, Mardoc, do you think with 2 elims probably coming up you slanted the map too much towards the rushers or do you think that it was pretty easy for everyone to realize that A) The map needed to be small to give the rushers a chance and B) even if they didn't see A, the map being small was apparent early enough for everyone to prioritize warrior builds early?

I lean towards the fact that this is the fault of the players, but I also know if I made this map I'd be feeling pretty crummy about the pending exits of 2 players.

A little from column A, a little from column B. I mean, Small is the recommended size for a 5 player game. And I did have direction to make the Doviello playable, to make the map smaller than PBEM1, etc. I don't know what Bob should have really done differently, but it does take the occasional loss to a scout to make worker-first a gamble instead of an obvious choice - and Doviello without a chance to rush would be equally sad to watch.

On the other hand, it still feels like a waste. I don't know how fun it would be to be in Bob's shoes, where the Doviello are on his doorstep before he even knows they're his neighbor - and he's even built nothing but warriors. I'm also not sure how much fun it will continue to be for Mist, Ichabod, and Ellimist, all on their own.

I hope they both find new games soon, and that Sareln can stop being a synonym for rushee. (Hey, Sareln, maybe you should consider being a rusher).

[Square Leg]

A little from column A, a little from column B. I mean, Small is the recommended size for a 5 player game. And I did have direction to make the Doviello playable, to make the map smaller than PBEM1, etc. I don't know what Bob should have really done differently, but it does take the occasional loss to a scout to make worker-first a gamble instead of an obvious choice - and Doviello without a chance to rush would be equally sad to watch.

On the other hand, it still feels like a waste. I don't know how fun it would be to be in Bob's shoes, where the Doviello are on his doorstep before he even knows they're his neighbor - and he's even built nothing but warriors. I'm also not sure how much fun it will continue to be for Mist, Ichabod, and Ellimist, all on their own.

I hope they both find new games soon, and that Sareln can stop being a synonym for rushee. (Hey, Sareln, maybe you should consider being a rusher).

The Doviello are a rush civ and you can't nerf them any more for that fact than you can any other civ for their features. Bob did take a risk when he sent his scout off wandering - would I have done the same - of course. I'd be in exactly the same position as he is. I'd guess that most of the lurkers here (Except ilios of course! ) would have done the same.

[uberfish]

I built warrior first in PBEM 2...

[Sareln]

A little from column A, a little from column B. I mean, Small is the recommended size for a 5 player game. And I did have direction to make the Doviello playable, to make the map smaller than PBEM1, etc. I don't know what Bob should have really done differently, but it does take the occasional loss to a scout to make worker-first a gamble instead of an obvious choice - and Doviello without a chance to rush would be equally sad to watch.

On the other hand, it still feels like a waste. I don't know how fun it would be to be in Bob's shoes, where the Doviello are on his doorstep before he even knows they're his neighbor - and he's even built nothing but warriors. I'm also not sure how much fun it will continue to be for Mist, Ichabod, and Ellimist, all on their own.

I hope they both find new games soon, and that Sareln can stop being a synonym for rushee. (Hey, Sareln, maybe you should consider being a rusher).

I would not really count my loss against the map here. I noted that the map seemed small and then simply didn't take the proper precautionary measures. Given that my huts gave gold while it seems others gave tech, I'm not sure just gambling on the all-in worker-first build is actually wrong...

[uberfish]

Hut luck might always be balanced out by Lairs or Events later, though

[Sareln]

Hut luck might always be balanced out by Lairs or Events later, though

True. I was definitely on tilt at that point though

[Nicolae Carpathia]

I feel guilty as hell, because I sent my units the wrong direction. In fact, it was pretty poor scouting in general, both were sent to the west, but the huge amount of room to the west made me think there'd be tons of room to the east as well. I sure didn't expect someone to spawn 8 tiles away to the NE, considering there was nothing 8 tiles away to the west.

[Mardoc]

I feel guilty as hell, because I sent my units the wrong direction. In fact, it was pretty poor scouting in general, both were sent to the west, but the huge amount of room to the west made me think there'd be tons of room to the east as well. I sure didn't expect someone to spawn 8 tiles away to the NE, considering there was nothing 8 tiles away to the west.

Well, a large part of this was that Mist moved west, you moved east, and Ellimist moved west.

[Bobchillingworth]

Oh well, I guess. Not sure what exactly I was supposed to do on a map where warrior -> warrior wasn't enough to survive. Even if I had kept the starting warrior at home as well, I'm not sure that would have mattered since I lost both of my defenders on the very first attack. And honestly, who here would normally have three warriors at home before even ten turns had elapsed, unless you were playing some obscene variant?



I don't want to blame Mardoc for my loss, because that's a lame excuse for poor play. Except I had the "optimal" builds for my situation and still as Nic stated "never had a chance".


My main criticism, besides the map being way too small and therefore weighted toward the rushers, is that the map preferences which all players agreed on were outright ignored. Why the hell were we on a donut map, when I specifically stated that I did not want the map to use that script, and all of the other players agreed with my request? Yes, I realize that it may have seemed like my main opposition to the Donut script was on the basis that it didn't look enough like a fantasy world or something. That was indeed a small part of the reason why I was against it, but Dave hit the main reason precisely with this post in the second page of the map thread:

A thought on balance: if you go with donut map, each civ will have two neighbors, and they will have a big impact on the game's difficulty. Put the Doviello between the Lanun and Calabim, and they'll have to devote some early hammers (and maybe research) to defense.

This was a game where at least three of the leaders are easily classified as being "rushers". A donut map would mean that the softer civs, particularly the Lanun, would be guaranteed to start next to at least one civ who would be sure to gun for them as soon as contact was made, as the Lanun were the only civ who didn't start with any combat bonuses for the units in their cities. With no safe backyard to expand in to and no chokepoints, I realized before I even started the game that a donut map would be a recipe for disaster. And hey, here we are less than a dozen turns into the game and it's already down two civs. Mapmakers, please do not second-guess the players in the game, ever. If you think that their selections are misguided, just tell them the potential implications of their choices so that they can rethink things. I had put a bit of thought into this game before posting the signup thread, and that influenced for why I voted for particular map options.



Sorry Mardoc, this post ended up being a little harsher than I intended it to be. I was originally going to post something like "oh well what can you do", but then I looked at the map thread and the answer became "actually follow the player's instructions".




Oh and for everyone who got their panties in a twist over my Hyborem talk, get over yourselves. I've summoned Hyborem exactly one (1) time, and that was just for fun rather than some sort of actual gambit. I've talked about it offhandedly in my PBEM V thread, yet have emphatically not switched (also, people discussing that here got dangerously close into spoiler-land). This game was the only one where I considered actually rushing to Hyborem, which given the map would I think have been an imminently sensible plan. What if Hyborem had spawned in the center of the map? He'd have been invulnerable until someone had both adepts and water / life mana, which most of the opponents were unlikely to ever have, especially at the time when Hyborem could first appear. If my predilection for idly talking about Hyborem & other things Veil offends anyone, I suggest that they no longer read my threads- we'll all be happier for it =)

[Selrahc]

Oh and for everyone who got their panties in a twist over my Hyborem talk, get over yourselves. I've summoned Hyborem exactly one (1) time, and that was just for fun rather than some sort of actual gambit. I've talked about it offhandedly in my PBEM V thread, yet have emphatically not switched. This game was the only one where I considered actually rushing to Hyborem, which given the map would I think have been an imminently sensible plan. What if Hyborem had spawned in the center of the map? He'd have been invulnerable until someone had both adepts and water / life mana, which most of the opponents were unlikely to ever have, especially at the time when Hyborem could first appear. If my predilection for idly talking about Hyborem & other things Veil offends anyone, I suggest that they no longer read my threads- we'll both be happier for it =)

I enjoy the Hyborem talk. It's a running gag, with a little basis in truth. Sareln gets rushed. Bob goes for Hyborem.