Nobody expects the Chinese Inquisition: Isabella of China

[Mardoc]

Oh, the deer is 2 hammers, not just one! I figured it was equivalent to the plains hill forest.

Um...BtS palaces still give you +1 hammer, right?

Edit: if we're going to consider growing then whipping, we ought to consider working the corn/floodplains as an option as well - we'd grow and tech faster, just lose production on whatever we're building in the meantime.

[Gaspar]

Well, if anyone's interested here's an extremely quick, dirty and probably inaccurate sandbox. I didn't bother to mess around with things like height/width, just to get the terrain up. I'm going to try a couple of starts but I suspect slow building the worker while working the Deer is going to come out ahead.

Attempt1

I SIP for the purposes of exposing this much territory, so that decision is now irreversible:

[Gaspar]

Oh, the deer is 2 hammers, not just one! I figured it was equivalent to the plains hill forest.

Um...BtS palaces still give you +1 hammer, right?

Edit: if we're going to consider growing then whipping, we ought to consider working the corn/floodplains as an option as well - we'd grow and tech faster, just lose production on whatever we're building in the meantime.

BTS Palaces do not give +1 hammer. +1 happy, +8 commerce, +2 Culture, +4 EP.

[Lewwyn]

Mardoc the Plains hill city plant is giving the 2 hammers.

Yes deer. Whip is questionable IMO.

Two things, how fast are we researching BW? With the exp bonus we might be able to get the worker out before we get the tech and can switch into slavery (yay for SPI). Also how fast are we growing? We still have to put 15 hammers into a worker before we can 1 pop whip it. I really think that with this nice deer tile we can pop a worker before BW and the growth and enough hammers. In fact:

4+1 H + 2 surplus = 7hpt = Worker in 6 turns on quick.

as opposed to

3 surplus = growth in 5 turns + 2 turns for 15h then whip. I think we're looking at 7 turn worker for the whip as opposed to 6t for straight up.

The deciding factor, however, is how much that extra turn is worth given that you would be working the oasis (NOT the FP or corn) for an extra 2 commerce per turn while growing. Plus with the whip you're getting 1 food surplus in the food box. So consider that. If we want to go for the Oracle, that extra commerce might be real helpful. Sandboxing this out past the first 10 turns would be helpful.

[Lewwyn]

Welp, 9-10 T for BW answers that question. You'd have to wait 10 turns to get the worker out. by that time you could have gotten the worker out, the corn farmed and a second worker on the way. Straight up worker working Deer looks best.

[Mardoc]

There's enough differences between BtS and FFH, perhaps I should just go stand quietly in a corner. I thought the oasis was also a 3/0/1 tile, but on closer inspection it's 3/0/2. I'll stick to stuff that's similar, like naming schemes and diplo .

[SevenSpirits]

Mardoc the Plains hill city plant is giving the 2 hammers.

Yes deer. Whip is questionable IMO.

Two things, how fast are we researching BW? With the exp bonus we might be able to get the worker out before we get the tech and can switch into slavery (yay for SPI). Also how fast are we growing? We still have to put 15 hammers into a worker before we can 1 pop whip it. I really think that with this nice deer tile we can pop a worker before BW and the growth and enough hammers. In fact:

4+1 H + 2 surplus = 7hpt = Worker in 6 turns on quick.

as opposed to

3 surplus = growth in 5 turns + 2 turns for 15h then whip. I think we're looking at 7 turn worker for the whip as opposed to 6t for straight up.

The deciding factor, however, is how much that extra turn is worth given that you would be working the oasis (NOT the FP or corn) for an extra 2 commerce per turn while growing. Plus with the whip you're getting 1 food surplus in the food box. So consider that. If we want to go for the Oracle, that extra commerce might be real helpful. Sandboxing this out past the first 10 turns would be helpful.

You're also building an entire warrior! That's not insignificant. On the other hand you miscalculated and it's an 8t worker (you didn't count the whip turn). (Edit: and apparently BW takes too long.)

It's funny, Izzy/China is simply the ideal candidate to grow/whip the first worker, yet you have this silly PH/deer start.

[Gaspar]

Welp, 9-10 T for BW answers that question. You'd have to wait 10 turns to get the worker out. by that time you could have gotten the worker out, the corn farmed and a second worker on the way. Straight up worker working Deer looks best.

There's enough differences between BtS and FFH, perhaps I should just go stand quietly in a corner. I thought the oasis was also a 3/0/1 tile, but on closer inspection it's 3/0/2. I'll stick to stuff that's similar, like naming schemes and diplo .

Yeah, looks like working the deer and slow-building the worker will win in all circumstances, so we can pass the save on and sandbox from there.

And Mardoc, I had us using the PH first in my initial analysis, don't sweat the small stuff. You should know as well as anyone that the conversation is the important part - I appreciate any and all input, anyone who's met me can attest I'm prone to being a bit rash.

[SevenSpirits]

There's enough differences between BtS and FFH, perhaps I should just go stand quietly in a corner. I thought the oasis was also a 3/0/1 tile, but on closer inspection it's 3/0/2. I'll stick to stuff that's similar, like naming schemes and diplo .

Oases are the same in BtS and FFH too, you should stick to it as well.

[Gaspar]

FWIW, since I decided I hated myself and watched the Arsenal game I had taped this morning instead of continuing to Sandbox (would have been a much better use of my time) here's the demos from the turn:



Certainly would appear we have identical starts. Though is there a catch-up issue in play? Mackoti is Creative, so his GNP should be 2 higher than ours and TT's, no? Actually, come to think of it, let's walk through this. I'm generating 8 commerce from the palace plus 1 from the city center - all converted to 9 beakers, then add 1 for the free beaker you always get. I'm working on BW which has Mining as a prereq, so those 10 base beakers turn into (10*1.2=12) 12 beakers. I also generate 2 culture from the palace, for a total of 14 GNP. Add in the 4 EP that have absolutely no value since we've not met anyone, and there's the 18 figure. So... if Mackoti is also on 18, that means he's researching something without a prerequisite and our 2 beakers from knowing BW cancel his 2 extra culture. Maya starts with Mining and Mysticism so he's probably researching Agriculture. (Could be hunting, but Agriculture would be the normal choice. We'll know in 4T for sure.)

Rival Average is 11 = 33 total. With Mackoti at 18 and Commodore the 1 that leaves TT with a 14 GNP. Erm. How would he manage that? The 10 beakers are immutable as a minimum - 8 palace, 1 city center, 1 free beaker. The 2 culture and 4 espionage are also immutable. So the worst GNP anyone can achieve on T1 having settled is 16. It means Mackotis has to be 18, because with Creative 18 is the worst GNP he can achieve. Ah yes, it has to be Civ's obnoxious preference for FLOOR functions. 18+16+1 = 35/3 = 11.67. 12 in the real world, 11 in Civ. So TT is also working a 0 commerce tile and researching something without a prerequisite. HRE starts with Mysticism and Hunting, so he must also be working the deer while building a worker and researching Agriculture.

So for those whose eyes glaze over at C&D here's the TL;DR version of my drunkard's walk through the demographics:

• We have identical starts.
  
• Everyone is building a worker (note that the free hammer from expansive doesn't go into the MFG number, so our number is 4 rather than 5) while working a 0 commerce tile.
  
• TT is almost definitely researching Agriculture.
  
• Mackoti is very probably researching Agriculture.
  
• I am not very good at this.
  
• This entire exercise is pretty meaningless.