[SPOILERS] Peter of the Ottomans carries a big stick

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did we decide on the public banter only, or is diplomacy allowed? If so, maybe you can pm\email tankra and try to get a feel for his intentions.

It would also be useful to know who is to our left, but that may prove difficult - since they apparently took the same city on the PH as tankra. we know its not Sian, due to your earlier C&D. so we must have either SAT or Nicolai to our left.

[thestick]

1. This seems very very likely to be a perfectly mirrored start. Everyone has this really small inlet and is lined up 5 civs one after the other. The plains hill sheep to the left of the western ice mass matches our plains hill sheep, tankra's tundra forest to the right of eastern ice mass matches our tunra forest left of our cities borders. so that means no only tankra on the right, but someone else on the left - and mostly likely both civs have another civ on their other side too. To make things even and fair, there is a good chance those civs wrap east to west and touch each other too. Do we know what size this map is? (std, tiny, large).

The map is Small, Emperor difficulty, Cold climate, Low Sea Level. I agree, it's probably Cylindrical. It probably is perfectly mirrored - the white lines indicate where the repetition is. There probably is a civ to our west and Tankra's east, but if a rush is coming, I think it'll be headed for me.

1. I'm closer. We've already made contact on T3! Our capitals are just six tiles away!
2. I settled the capital on flatland. Assuming Tankra has come to the conclusion these starts are perfectly mirrored, he knows I settled on flatlands and don't get the 25% defending bonus.
3. I'm new to Realms Beyond. He probably thinks I'm an idiot and I won't see it coming.

2. I think there is a good possibility that no civ can immediately reach each other for an early rush. two reasons. One, I don't yet see any open border - just peaks, sea and ice masses blocking us off. We can't be sure of this of course, there might be a path NW, W from the plains sheep just outside our borders. The other reason is with 5 civs packed so closely, if there is easy access it will quickly turn into a blood bath, which isn't what most RB mapmakers encourage. So we do need to explore the tundra quickly, but we also need to explore the south - as there is likely a more pourous, harder to defend border down there (or its possible everyone has open land and the tundra is the only land passage - or there is no land passage, only sea access to the south - the point is we can't be sure yet).

I think there's a pass through the tundra. This map reminds me of the Adventure 51 map: the capitals are EXTREMELY close together, but there are mountains blocking the most direct way and strategic chokepoints to defend. However, that's exactly the point! There probably is a connection between us somewhere - otherwise this game would turn into a massive build-fest.

There might be a pass through the south, but given the water continues for a while, I think we're fine for a bit. Of course, we'll need to set up sentries down there sometime.

I believe there's a path either east of the dear or northeast of the deer. Possibly around the central lake as well. If there are choke points, we'll need to plant Archers there ASAP to start getting fortify bonuses.

I can't tell whether Tankra went Worker or Warrior first. He's probably working the river wheat right now, as evidenced by the one commerce he's producing. I also don't think we can talk about this game outside of the banter thread.

Here's why I'm so afraid of his Dog Soldiers: he can get them out extremely quickly. If he rushes to Bronze Working and builds two workers in the meantime, he can get them running off the assembly line by around T15! If he does, there's no time to settle a second city.

Note: I'm talking about super-early rushes, a T15 rush. I'm thinking there are 3 periods for an early rush (times are very approximate):
1. T15. He builds two workers while waiting for BW, then crushes someone with chopped and whipped Dog Soldiers.
2. T30. He builds a second city, possibly a Barracks, and then starts chopping and whipping Dog Soldiers.
3. T50. He sends a mixed stack with swords, dogs, and spears.

I'm primarily worried about the T15 attack here.

Here's why I feel we should go Archery over Animal Husbandry:
1. We don't exactly need the Pastures right now. As I've said before, we can mine the sheep instead of building a pasture on it (thanks T-Hawk!). That'll get us up to a 1/4 tile, exactly the same as a 3/2 tile when building Settlers, and better than 3/2 while building Workers for kicking in the Expansive bonus. We don't need the food, given that we have Wheat and Deer and are expecting to level off at Size 4 and pump Settlers and Workers. We might need to change that plan...
2. We'll need Archers to repel a T15 attack. Archers with 50% city defence and 20% cultural defense will be nasty to crack. Even better would be if we could find a chokepoint somewhere, similar to Pitboss 6. With 75% natural defence and 25% hill defence, plus whatever fortify we can muster, we'll be safe from super-early strength 4 Dog Soldier rushes. Plus, this method has the added advantage on not being crushed by pillagers.
3. We are utterly screwed without Archers, Chariots, or Axemen. Our warriors fold like cardboard cutouts to stronger stuff! If we go Animal Husbandry and horses don't show up, we're dead meat. Don't have the exact numbers, AH will take to T10-12, Archery will take until 16-ish, and by then, Tankra will be able to chop and whip Dog Soldiers while we can't.
4. We can build an Archer instead of Warrior while waiting for Size 2. Get some real defenders to protect ourselves from cheese Warrior moves. We'll get 12 hammers naturally while waiting. I think Archers are 15 hammers (I'll check later) on Quick speed, so all we need to do is work the plains hill forest and plains hill sheep for a couple of turns while waiting for the wheat farm and we should be able to pop it.

Personally, I don't think the gamble is worth taking. I know I'm being very paranoid and conservative, but I don't want to lose this game before it begins! Besides, if he chops out Dog Soldiers and we repel him without being pillaged to the stone age, we'll just outexpand him and crush him at our leisure.

Hope I didn't ramble on for too long.

[thestick]

Here's another reason we probably should go Archery: it'll give us some diplomatic muscle. If Tankra is planning a super-early Dog rush, he's probably counting on the super-early part and not the Dog part. If I were him, I'd bet on my Expansive neighbor going Worker-Worker-Settler, chopping out the Settler and completely neglecting military. I'd get on my (effective) strength 8 Dog Soldier crushing his strength 2 warrior. I'd bet on his chops and whips being worthless due to being able to build nothing but Warriors.

However, if we get to Archers, things dramatically change. Now 8 vs. 2 is 4 vs. 3, plus city culture and the 50% innate city bonus. Even better would be 4 vs. 6 on a forest hill somewhere. If we tell him "We have Archers; don't attack," hopefully he won't.

What can we post in the banter thread now to get some sort of clue? Asking him upfront "are you going to rush us?" is probably a bad idea.

Again, we don't know if he's rushing us, but paranoia is running on overdrive here.

[thestick]

Quick update, longer one to come later.

We met our western neighbor: SAT! Great, our eastern neighbor is militarily strong and our western neighbor is Expansive. Also, both our neighbors have copper-less replacements of copper troops.

Discovered Hunting. Archery in 5t. I'll find a way to micro getting an Archer when we grow to Size 2.

[Bigger]

ok, you convinced me . so archery --> AH ---> mining ---> BW?


with the mirrored small start I suspect we will have horses closeby - otherwise there won't be horses in the game at all. if you're right about his dog warrior rush, chariots will be great for getting aggressive ourselves when the time comes (they still get the 100% bonus versus dog warriors, I assume - only vs a 4 power instead of 5).

[thestick]

As promised, here's the full report. (Two turns in one day!)


I was planning on turning my warrior around, but I saw the borders of our western neighbor, and I couldn't resist. SAT is right across the other lake!

They're Expansive/Spiritual of the Maya, starting with Mysticism/Mining. They have Holkans and Ball Courts. On one hand, getting a free 6% on Mining is great. On the other hand, our neighbor on the west is going to be running gambits as a farmer, and our neighbor on the east is going to be keeping us militarily honest. Great. Just great.



I believe starts are mirrored. SAT settled on the plains hill to the west of our capital. The spot loses on the sheep, but doesn't have Tankra's issue of picking up a lot of tundra tiles. Since SAT is Expansive and on a plains hill, he'll make 6 hpt on a worker, making it come out on T8, exactly when ours comes out. (Technically we don't know he's building a worker, but given he's Expansive, it's a pretty good guess. Plus, we know somebody is making 5 hpt base.)

Anyway, I propose red dot as our second or third city. It picks up wheat, cows, and gold first ring. Barring strategic resources popping up somewhere else, I think this is going to be our second city.

One last oddity to report:


We have visibility on a northern tile. When on globe view, the tile distorts to the poles, meaning that that's the northern edge of the map. I'm pretty sure this map is cylindrical.

[thestick]

ok, you convinced me . so archery --> AH ---> mining ---> BW?


with the mirrored small start I suspect we will have horses closeby - otherwise there won't be horses in the game at all. if you're right about his dog warrior rush, chariots will be great for getting aggressive ourselves when the time comes (they still get the 100% bonus versus dog warriors, I assume - only vs a 4 power instead of 5).

Yeah, we need horses at some point. The problem with Archers is that they only work on defending. I'm pretty sure they get the 100% bonus vs. dog soldiers. I'm not sure why you think we have horses nearby.

Next question: do we go to AH before BW? It reveals horses, lets us work cows at the second city, and lets us build a pasture on the sheep. I'm a bit worried about delaying chopping and Slavery for too long. Even though we want to chop and whip workers and build Settlers regularly, this does feel a bit too long.

If we go Animal Husbandry->Mining->Bronze Working, Bronze Working comes in around T30 or so. If we go Mining->Bronze Working, Bronze Working comes in around T23. It'll probably be a bit faster than this due to tech devaluation and this map being Small instead of Normal, but a rough guide is better than nothing!

[thestick]

Wait a second, I just realized something: that's the bottom of the lake! I don't think SAT's going to do anything funny with their Warrior, but we may want to note that the dog rush, if it's coming, could come from the north or the south.

[Bigger]

Wait a second, I just realized something: that's the bottom of the lake! I don't think SAT's going to do anything funny with their Warrior, but we may want to note that the dog rush, if it's coming, could come from the north or the south.

Yeah, I'm glad you kept the warrior going south. we really need further scouting info.

The red dot looks pretty, but we will have a much better idea in 5-10 turns. Anyway, we have awhile before we have a settler. Rather a narrow straight, we'd also have to put a city somewhere like 1s of the eastern wine (to pick up wine and crab).

As for the horses - its just a guess, but - its a small map. Doesn't seem like we will have much room to expand at all. If we have horses, they aren't going to be far. It's mirrored, so if we don't have horses, likely nobody does. I suppose its possible no one does, but that seems really lame. So my gut tells me we have horses and at least one metal close by. We'll see soon enough, I guess.

as for AH or mining first, I don't know the answer. Chopping and slavery are tough to delay. I was thinking we'd need chariots to counter dog warrior (axeman will get shredded), but we will have archers to defend against them - and we aren't likely to build a large force of them to attack before BW anyway (need settlers and workers first). So I guess militarily it doesn't matter.

However, whether putting off chopping and slavery for 7 turns to get the pastures built is worth it, I don't know the answer w/o a sim.

[thestick]

Yeah, I'm glad you kept the warrior going south. we really need further scouting info.

The red dot looks pretty, but we will have a much better idea in 5-10 turns. Anyway, we have awhile before we have a settler. Rather a narrow straight, we'd also have to put a city somewhere like 1s of the eastern wine (to pick up wine and crab).

As for the horses - its just a guess, but - its a small map. Doesn't seem like we will have much room to expand at all. If we have horses, they aren't going to be far. It's mirrored, so if we don't have horses, likely nobody does. I suppose its possible no one does, but that seems really lame. So my gut tells me we have horses and at least one metal close by. We'll see soon enough, I guess.

as for AH or mining first, I don't know the answer. Chopping and slavery are tough to delay. I was thinking we'd need chariots to counter dog warrior (axeman will get shredded), but we will have archers to defend against them - and we aren't likely to build a large force of them to attack before BW anyway (need settlers and workers first). So I guess militarily it doesn't matter.

However, whether putting off chopping and slavery for 7 turns to get the pastures built is worth it, I don't know the answer w/o a sim.

I'm still not sure we will have metals or horses nearby. Maybe it's just I've grown up on Single Player, but I don't trust 'Outsmart the Mapmaker' analysis. Again, if we gamble Animal Husbandry and horses don't show up, we are screwed. Better to play it safe and go for Archery.

A filler city on the coast doesn't seem like a bad idea - but then again, strategic resources.

Yeah, Animal Husbandry vs. Bronze Working is a really tough call. Both are good military/growth techs that are essential. The problem, of course, is just that we're not sure we have the time.

Anyway, if I can wager a guess on the map, the north looks more defensive while the south looks more expansive. The north looks like the natural place to expand if you're worried about your skin, what with the lakes and conveniently placed mountains. The south looks like the natural place to expand if you're looking for a snowball, what with the rivers, grassland, good resources, and GOLD. I wouldn't be surprised if the strategic resources are to the north.

The one thing that irritates me about this situation is how whatever we do, we are delayed in our expansion. Best case scenario, a rush doesn't come, whether by us convincing Tankra it's a bad idea, or just we raised all these flags for nothing. Second best case scenario, the rush comes, we repel it with minimal casualties and little pillaging. Second to worst case scenario, the rush breaks our defences and pillages us to the prehistoric times. Worst case scenario, the rush comes and wipes us off the face of the Earth.

Even in the best case scenario, we're slowed down. We had to prioritize military techs (Archery) over growth techs (Animal Husbandry). We'll have to spend more hammers building military, spend more beakers on military techs, and waste more worker turns retreating and the sight of an explorer. In essence, we'll be playing a mini- Always War while the others will be playing Adventure Thirty-Five, Always Peace with a Golden Age. All just because we had the misfortune to start next to Native America.

On slightly less depressing topics... I just had a crazy idea. It's nothing but a pipe dream at this point, but we should consider rushing Sareln and AutomattedTeller. With Tankra forcing us to build military, we might as well use it. All the arguments for why Tankra might rush us apply to SAT, what with them being Expansive, AutomattedTeller being a relatively new face at Realms Beyond, and, apparently, Sareln getting rushed every time he plays FFH.

They'll probably trust Holkans for defence, meaning a few Axes can utterly destroy them. Again, a pipe dream, but it's not a terrible one.

And if we find horses, attack Tankra. He probably isn't prioritizing copper, meaning just Dog Soldiers and Archers on defence. While Chariots don't exactly beat Archers, we just pillage him to the prehistoric age, and we finish him off at our leisure.