Diplo with Pirates

[TheHumanHydra]

How about this:

Pirates,

Thank you for your frank reply; I shall continue in the same spirit. First, I would like to remind you of our statement in our previous message: "the only possible resolution to this conflict from our perspective involves Tortuga either dust or in our hands." We see this as the only reasonable basis for negotiation. Second, our economy is not suffering; furthermore, the surest route to economic advancement we can see is to absorb your cities into our empire. To abandon this path, we will require sufficient compensatory advantages. Finally, we disagree that you will be unable to compete without Tortuga, if you devote all your energies to settlement in the east. Furthermore, you can save your present army if you withdraw peacefully from Tortuga now, and provide us reason not to press onward. What are you prepared to offer us for peace?

Sincerely,

TheHumanHydra

All I changed is the last sentence. I do think, however, that if we threaten to conquer their civilization, we should be prepared to carry out that threat. They shouldn't be able to simply call our bluff, and have effective peace without giving up anything. They're also so open ... isn't the axe-rush considered one of the strongest possible early-game plays in Civ?

With regard to settlement, what about 2E of the sheep, below the peak? That way we get the copper too.

[HitAnyKey]

Yeah, that message sounds good. Send it along. I'll continue settlement discussion in the main thread after I've finished my dinner and relaxed a bit.

[TheHumanHydra]

Message sent:

Pirates,

Thank you for your frank reply; I shall continue in the same spirit. First, I would like to remind you of our statement in our previous message: "the only possible resolution to this conflict from our perspective involves Tortuga either dust or in our hands." We see this as the only reasonable basis for negotiation. Second, our economy is not suffering; furthermore, the surest route to economic advancement we can see is to absorb your cities into our empire. To abandon this path, we will require sufficient compensatory advantages. Finally, we disagree that you will be unable to compete without Tortuga, if you devote all your energies to settlement in the east. Furthermore, you can save your present army if you withdraw peacefully from Tortuga now, and provide us reason not to press onward. What are you prepared to offer us for peace?

Sincerely,

TheHumanHydra

P.S. I apologize for the weird background on the previous email; it was because the text was copied from a discussion thread on the forums. You could read it okay, right?
--
- Team Menagerie-trois

(The only addition is the post-script; there was a weird grey field behind the text of my previous message that I realized came from copying it from the forums.)

[Lord Parkin]

From Pirates:

Dear M3:

Unfortunately, we see the situation in a very different light. Letting you have Tortuga, and offering even more besides, would simply cripple our economy. Most of our team feels that we would rather fight to the end than try to play on from such an impossible position.

Meanwhile, whether you see it or not, this war has cost your team plenty already. You've had to build a barracks and at least 5 axemen, while leaving team Gilette on your other side free to expand. If you continue the war with us much longer, they may very well settle all the land towards you, while TEAM takes all the land towards us. We will make it as difficult as we possibly can to take our remaining cities, and even if you take them, they'll only cripple you with distance maintenance.

Instead, how about returning to your original proposal- destroy Tortuga, and then gift us a settler? After that, we can work together for a decent chance at keeping up with the other teams.
Sincerely,
luddite,
Team Pirates

[TheHumanHydra]

HitAnyKey and I were just chatting; we both believe the Pirates' message is ... how do you do the weedy-face smiley? When did we offer them a settler? Why would we give them one? Why would we raze the city for them now? Why are they acting like this is the apocalypse? Anyway, I'll draft another message tomorrow afternoon; we do need to think about whether we do intend to press on or not so we can figure out what kind of peace, if any, we are looking to get.

I'll be really interested to read their discussion threads when this is all over.

[TheHumanHydra]

My proposed reply (tell me whether or not I should include the phrase in brackets, or if it matters):

Pirates,

Thank you again for your frank reply; unfortunately, it is totally unreasonable. At this point we feel compelled to ask whether you truly want peace or if your only desire is to try and drag us down with you [- if that were possible].

We would remind you that whatever your opinion of your present situation or future outlook, you chose this gambit. You must have known and accepted that it might turn out badly for you. As such, we do not understand why you now expect to get off scot-free and end up in an equal or stronger position than our own. You are not in a position of power over us such that we need beg peace from you. On the contrary, it is in our power to decide whether your civilization will have a chance at victory or be utterly destroyed. Which leads me back to my question: do you earnestly desire to negotiate for an appropriate peace, or to fight us out of spite and end by having accomplished nothing?

Sincerely,

TheHumanHydra

This stems from my own lack of comprehension of what exactly they are hoping to accomplish. My fear is that my stern words in this and previous messages have or will drive them to be a thorn in our side forever if we choose not to conquer them. Do you think we should try our hand at a more conciliatory message? Are they trying to use some really sophisticated psychology on us to try and get us to leave them alone, or (even more convolutedly) to goad us into attacking them, to our supposed ruin? Or do they honestly intend to fight suicidally against us for the rest of the game if we don't give in to their totally unreasonable demands, setting them up as an equal power and defraying all the costs of their failed adventure? If they do intend to destroy themselves upon us, then their play in this game has been most self-destructive: as I said in the proposed message, this is their own failed gambit - not our unprovoked aggression of the callous conquerer! Anyway, sorry, just venting a little - their message really did get me in a bit of a knot.

THH

[TheHumanHydra]

My new proposed reply:

Pirates,

Thank you again for your frank reply. How about the following peace agreement?

We keep Tortuga, and you agree not to try and retake it. We sign a non-aggression pact for, say, 20 turns to start, with an eye toward renewing it. We agree not to settle any cities north-east of Tortuga, and you agree not to settle any more cities west of Barbados.

Now, multiple times in your previous emails you have expressed a desire to work together to keep up with the other teams. Without revealing anything of your plans you don't want too (and assuming something like the above agreement is acceptable!), what kind of cooperation did you have in mind? I hope this doesn't come across as insulting, but the fact that you settled so close to us does make us a little leery of trusting you too closely. We're just wondering what you had in mind to try and build trust between us. If we aren't going to fight, we are indeed going to need to work together, and for that we need to trust each other not to fight!

Sincerely,

TheHumanHydra

Now, obviously we shouldn't send this email if we intend to fight, but if we don't (and increasingly I feel that's the way we're leaning), then I think that's the most fair/least demanding agreement we can make. I really hope their response to it would be favourable - and I really hope they are sincere about wanting to work together! What I fear most is that leaving them in peace now when they are weak will find us with a dagger in our back in the future when they are strong.

[HitAnyKey]

Just re-read this again before getting ready for work. I would say any NAP request should be for 50 turns. But most of the rest looks ok, I think.

[Lord Parkin]

A brief thought on the proposed message, without knowing much about the context of the situation...

I would remove this sentence - "I hope this doesn't come across as insulting, but the fact that you settled so close to us does make us a little leery of trusting you too closely". Perhaps you could replace it with something that sounds a bit friendlier, or just leave it out entirely. True or not, if we want a chance to make friends we have to avoid the temptation to blame them for past events - instead we're better to just work towards mutual interests. (Especially since it'd be somewhat hypocritical to talk about our trust issues with them... after all, we did originally declare on them, regardless of our internal justification.)

[TheHumanHydra]

Good point, Lord Parkin. And thanks for the clarification regarding what length of NAP we might want, HAK. How does this sound?


Pirates,

Thank you again for your frank reply. How about the following peace agreement?

We keep Tortuga, and you agree not to try and retake it. We sign a non-aggression pact for, say, 50 turns to start. We agree not to settle any cities north-east of Tortuga, and you agree not to settle any more cities west of Barbados.

Now, multiple times in your previous emails you have expressed a desire to work together to keep up with the other teams. Without revealing anything of your plans you don't want to (and assuming something like the above agreement is acceptable!), what kind of cooperation did you have in mind? If we're not going to fight, you're right that we are going to need to work together, and if we're going to work together, we might as well start now!

Sincerely,

TheHumanHydra