Dark Souls Review

[Gustaran]

Honestly, this game sucks in the later stages. It was great fun until Anor Londo, which is definitely my favourite part.
The freaking catacombs were bad, but what really killed me was the Tomb of the Giants. Sorry, but running through the dark while not seeing a thing (unless you sacrifice your shield for a tiny lantern) then getting jumped on by damn Giant Skeletons which can two-hit me would be bad enough. But hey, while this is happening a bunch of Giant Skeleton Archers are shooting at me from the total dark and I can't even see them (but rest assured they can see me as if it was bright daylight).

Another thing I don't like is that you have no chance whatsoever to advance certain questlines unless you read the guide. My favourite example is the questline to save Sunbro. Just to give those who haven't played the game an idea - in order to save your buddy, you must do the following "obvious" things:

1. After defeating the Blighttown boss you have to hit a random spot on the wall to open a new passage. Well, no problem, I personally am banging my sword against the wall all day long since it is so much fun!

2. In the new passage, there is some strange demon/woman/monster thing. The only problem: You can't understand what she says (unless you picked an otherwise completely useless ring out of 10 starting gifts at the beginning of the game).

3. Now you have to join her covenant (without knowing why you would want to do that) and acquire 30 humanities and give those to her. Now humanity is a quite useful resources and rather rare unless farmed in specific places so nobody in their right mind would just give those away en masse. Even if you decide to do that of course you can't give her all the 30 humanities at once. No, you have to go through the same dialogue 30 times.

4. If for some unknown reason you managed to achieve this, a shortcut door opens in acompletely DIFFERENT AREA of the game. This is not communicated in any way to the player.

5. If now you access this shortcut before going to another "wrong" area of the game (which you have no clue about, but is very well possible) you can slay a sunlight maggot and grab the helmet that would otherwise drive your buddy insane. If you went the wrong way: bad luck, you trigger a cutscene where your now crazy buddy attacks you.



An the problem is that stuff like this happens all the time. You can miss crucial class teachers, powerful items and rare bonfires unless you check everything in a guide beforehand. Unfortunately, that's the point where it goes from "challenging" to "stupid".

[SevenSpirits]

Well, for Tomb of the Giants there are several items you can use that provide light, not just the lantern. There's also a headpiece and a spell. However I can't disagree with you that the game is being a dick there. Actually I like the different nature of the challenge in that area but I wish I could actually see the level at some point. I still have no real mental picture of the layout.

Another thing I don't like is that you have no chance whatsoever to advance certain questlines unless you read the guide.

In my opinion there are things you're expected to do in your first game, and things you are expected to maybe stumble upon at some point in a later playthrough. Ultimately, sunbro's demise is the default story. The fact that there's an esoteric way of saving him is an easter egg that is not in any way necessary to beat the game, and IMO would even lessen your enjoyment of it if it happened in your first playthrough, since you wouldn't get the tragic resolution of his normal plotline.

In general, there isn't a need for you to find most things in the game. Which things you find on your first playthrough may shape your choices, but it won't reduce your chances of success. For example, suppose you start as a pyromancer but never find a pyro trainer. Well, I guess you won't use much pyromancy, except for the few spells that you find lying on the ground. But instead you'll use whichever weapons you find and like. You can use the hand axe all game, it's fine. Or maybe you'll get a black knight sword at random, or pick up the halberd and give it a try and love it for its high damage and range.

The one area that I think can really bite you is weapon upgrading. For the unlucky bastards who attack Andre, or never find the large ember, your options are greatly reduced. And the upgrading system is not well-explained in-game. Pretty much everything in the game except the Andre + Large Ember combo is easily replaceable by something else.

[Gustaran]

Well, for Tomb of the Giants there are several items you can use that provide light, not just the lantern. There's also a headpiece and a spell.

See, that’s exactly what I am talking about: Do you remember how you acquired the light spell?

I defeated the Hydra and ran around the lake to make sure I didn’t miss anything. But hey, the guide told me I should have saved and reloaded the game and then a Golem would have appeared (very intuitive ). Ok, so then I defeat the Golem and some woman shows up, but instead of selling me anything she tells me I can call her anytime to buy stuff. Unfortunately she doesn’t give me the slightest hint on how I can call her. Oh, and IIRC I had to save and reload AGAIN at the same spot to be able to pick up the armor the Golem dropped. After that you either accidently come across her summoning point at the other end of the lake or – like me, you check the guide.

And just to give you an idea about the teachers: Let’s say you play a sorcerer. The first teacher [EDIT: for Pyromancy] is in a room you don’t have to enter on your way through the level and could possibly miss. The second thing is the fact that he is trapped in a barrel. Now, any person would think you could use your club to break the barrel, but god forbid: You need to “roll” against the barrel, because if you use a weapon you might hit the guy, he becomes aggressive and you have to kill him – there goes your class teacher.
Sure, you can switch from Sorcerer to Knight midgame if you are a pro, but certainly not if you are a first time casual player.

And while we are at it: The second teacher for Sorcery is not much better. You have got to turn the mechanic in Sen’s Fortress so the boulder breaks a wall you can’t get through otherwise to find him. Later in the Duke’s archive it becomes even weirder, since he goes crazier and crazier until he disappears - and if for some reason you save and reload, suddenly his very nice gear lies on the floor for you to pick up.
And then you have to backtrack all the way to the top to the empty room where you fought the boss the first time much earlier and only then you get basically the best catalyst and the cool Dragon’s Breath spell.

I am sorry, but that is not “easter egg” quality anymore, for most players having access to this is essential. The game is hard enough as it is and the result is just that probably 90% of the players check the forum or wiki.

EDIT: Ok, I made a mistake, the guy in the barrel is the Pyromancer trainer. Griggs the first sorcerer trainer is locked in the house in Undead burg, for which you only need to explore a back alley and have bought a special key from the undead merchant. Still, I would vastly prefer if there were simply some basic trainers at the major hub Firelink Shrine.

[uberfish]

Agree that solaire isn't intended to be saved on the first playthrough.

I think catacombs is an excellent level though. Dealing with skeletons is a tactical challenge. Lots of secrets and shortcuts to discover. The reason Pinwheel is easy is probably because it's intended for low level players speedrunning through to kill him first for the Rite of Kindling to be a viable option.

Oh yeah, first time through Tomb of the Giants first part really does suck. darkness + bottomless pits + enemies that can 2-shot you + no bonfire at the start of level is cheap as hell. Once you know what the obstacles are (and also realise that the glowing stones on the ground mark the path + skeleton archer eyes glow) it's not as bad.

The trainers aren't that bad... if you play without spoilers it's expected that you carefully search every room anyway. The game puts glowing treasures on ledges that you can't immediately access to encourage exploring. Actually, in anor londo you can't even progress without finding a cleverly hidden path.

Agree the need to quit-reload is bad game design (same sort of issue occurs with the bird that trades stuff in Undead Asylum). I'd have passed it off as a bug, if the game wasn't on its 5th patch.

As for weapons, the Black Knight/Silver Knight weapon line are top tier weapons or at least close, easily upgraded and not hidden in any way.

[Gustaran]

I think catacombs is an excellent level though. Dealing with skeletons is a tactical challenge.

Dealing with skeletons is a tactical challenge -or- you find out that using a divine weapon prevents the necromancer from resurrecting them. Again, if you know that detail the level suddenly is much easier.

As for weapons, the Black Knight/Silver Knight weapon line are top tier weapons or at least close, easily upgraded and not hidden in any way.

Ok, if these drop for you they might be a viable option (depending on when you get them) if you invest in melee stats.
For a Sorcerer these are not that great. And my main point is that certain weapons change the difficulty quite a lot. Learning about the drake sword nearly doubled my damage early in the game. Another huge damage upgrade is the Lightning Spear in Sen's Fortress. Of course if you are good enough you can probably finish the game with any weapon as long as you upgrade it and maybe apply resins when needed.

[SevenSpirits]

I am sorry, but that is not “easter egg” quality anymore, for most players having access to this is essential. The game is hard enough as it is and the result is just that probably 90% of the players check the forum or wiki.

I couldn't disagree more that guys like Logan are essential on your first playthrough. He's only necessary if you want to use spells as your main weapon, and IMO the game is a lot more fun if you use a melee weapon primarily, with a couple random spells (if any) for support. So I consider the lack of initial trainers as being a hint to get a weapon.

Looking carefully back over your other posts I see you may have started as a sorcerer or at least gone down that path, to which I must reply: I'm sorry. It's true, the game doesn't support a caster style very well IMO. The available spells are just very boring compared to using a weapon.

[Gustaran]

I couldn't disagree more that guys like Logan are essential on your first playthrough. He's only necessary if you want to use spells as your main weapon, and IMO the game is a lot more fun if you use a melee weapon primarily, with a couple random spells (if any) for support. So I consider the lack of initial trainers as being a hint to get a weapon.

Looking carefully back over your other posts I see you may have started as a sorcerer or at least gone down that path, to which I must reply: I'm sorry. It's true, the game doesn't support a caster style very well IMO. The available spells are just very boring compared to using a weapon.

Well my problem is that indeed I tried to replicate my playstyle from Demon's Souls in which I played as a Sorcerer. You are completely correct that these trainers are absolutely no-essential, unless you put all your points in INT like I did. I didn't care about the miracle or pyromancy teacher either.

I think I failed to grasp some differences between Demon's Souls and Dark Souls:

a) in DemS there were no charges for spells, so if you brought enough consumables you never ran out of mana and spell charges so you just needed each spell once ->buying addition copies was unnecessary
b) an item existed which combined talisman and catalyst, so going a mage path was much more viable, since many miracles had great utility/defensive purposes even without raising the Faith stat.
c) I would create a Moon Winged spear and upgrade it step by step by step through the game since it scaled with INT so well, never had to get another weapon (maybe 1 Falchion for boss battles)

Of course I realize that you can't get through all of Dark Souls and never touch a weapon, but it is probably much easier to raise Strength, Endurance and Health as opposed to spending additional valuable points in INT and Attunement.
Another thing is that IMHO Demon's Souls was quite a bit easier and especially shorter. In the end I really knew every level by heart and where every enemy was located. It's probably just a personal thing, but I am finding Dark Souls too big. In the beginning I felt it had the right balance between being challenging yet still fun, but later it started feeling like work.

I understand that there are players out there who play the game at level one and still find it too easy, so I am notsaying my opinion is the one and only way of seeing things. I guess some games just appeal to certain players and don't to others and I will be the first to admit that I may lack the skill level of Dark Souls intended target group.
In addition, if you are cruising through the game anyway you might not care about getting the best weapon. But if you are constantly dying it becomes irritating if the game withholds valuable information and starts to feel unfair instead of challenging.

[uberfish]

If you like spears and are an Int build, Moonlight Butterfly Horn is an excellent Int scaling weapon with very long range and decent speed which makes it fairly safe for a low vit mage to melee things. Magic/Enchanted winged spear from graveyard would probably also suffice.

(also, as a mage you can just keep Homing Soulmass up when exploring, and it'll take care of any solo ambushers you might run into)

The Lightning spear is great for finishing off Sen's fortress but also somewhat of a trap if you rely on it, as it's one of the worst weapons you could possibly take against Ornstein later. Well, by that point people should have different options available anyway.

Sorcerer is quite gear dependent. Unfortunately, I'd say it's the easiest class if you already know where everything is and can grab a decent weapon to rely on until you free Logan... and a pain if you don't.

[Gustaran]

The Moonlight Butterfly Horn is certainly an option, but it has only "B" for INT scaling, while an enchanted Winged Spear has an "A" rating. The best wepaon is probably the Moonlight Greatsword with "S" scaling, but I did not think of trying to chop of Seath's tail.

Interestingly, I did not have any major problems with Ornstein & Smough (won on my 3rd try), because Sunbro tanked them for me and I blew away Ornstein in ~15 seconds with 4 Souls Spears and some extra damage from other spells. Smough by himself is pretty slow and also easily distracted by Sunbro, so I was never in any real danger.
I can imagine this fight being a major PITA if you do it melee without Sunbro.

[uberfish]

The difference between an A and B scaling isn't that important, especially for a mage because you do not need melee weapons to kill bosses as a mage, and any fully upgraded weapon is overkill on regular enemies. The main thing is that you like the move set of whatever weapon you're using so that you kill enemies without taking too much damage in return.