Hmm. I don't know if fin would eclipse org here. It's difficult to say, but I reckon org would edge it. How many cities would go commerce? 2? 3? You would need to be triggering on a lot of tiles to beat org given the hammer bonuses on courthouses and later factories. Plus org works the same if you go full hammer Eco later or want to mix. I would say fin edges if you see yourself going for a town US style Eco everywhere, but again this paints a target so to speak as it lacks the prod ability.
Goood point, it makes much more sense to cottage absolutely everything in Ancient era starts, but here, we want to get over the initial hump and go straight into hybrid/wealthbuilds.
ReallyEvilMuffin: Im not convinced fin>org on this setup
Nicolae Carpathia: Goood point, it makes much more sense to cottage absolutely everything in Ancient era starts.
ReallyEvilMuffin: However, after playing the start out a little, I think that perhaps locking in Khmer and taking whichever is left could be an idea
ReallyEvilMuffin: That free food is so useful early
Nicolae Carpathia: i agree that khymer is beastly
ReallyEvilMuffin: I reckon that with the spi speed could land you taj
Nicolae Carpathia: also good for denial purposes even if we dont exploit golden age civic switches
ReallyEvilMuffin: Its difficult to bulb taj, and we will have a GE by then anyway.
ReallyEvilMuffin: Completely agree
ReallyEvilMuffin: Also note the marble early. Tempting everyone
Nicolae Carpathia: are you thinking of going pacifism first?
ReallyEvilMuffin: Probably. I'm unsure exactly what would be best, but doubled GP in that second city over the speed building seems good
ReallyEvilMuffin: OR if you want a fast missonary
Nicolae Carpathia: ghandi may still have the edge in popping out the first great engineer however
ReallyEvilMuffin: Yes
Nicolae Carpathia: but we can prob beat them to nat with ORG and barays
ReallyEvilMuffin: But limit will be teching nationalism
Nicolae Carpathia: i was originally thinking of chopping the taj but thats probably not a viable option
ReallyEvilMuffin: With marble hooked and forests pre chopped could be possible. However I think unlikely.
ReallyEvilMuffin: But there are other things to consider here actually - a monk economy is viable in the ren start. Garentueed religion, all 3 wonders available.
Nicolae Carpathia: true dat
Nicolae Carpathia: actually that would be super fun to play with using iCS
ReallyEvilMuffin: and notre is also available which is nice
ReallyEvilMuffin: Might actually be a good use of the GE, going AP, then slow building the others if stone is available.
ReallyEvilMuffin: I think we would have 3/4 cities max when taj is available
ReallyEvilMuffin: and they would be heavily whipped
Nicolae Carpathia: ok, so our two paths forward are: Taj (denial, partially enabled by ORG barays, a minor GA boost) vs Monk (synergises with ORG city spam, synergises with SPI, is partially obsoleted in ~50 turns
Nicolae Carpathia: either way, pick Ashie?
ReallyEvilMuffin: Hmm, I'm trying to work out if being forced onto something other than khmer from plako is worse than forced onto mansa
Nicolae Carpathia: yeah, hammans arent that impressive considering we have a bunch of happy already
ReallyEvilMuffin: if we go aosaka, and cant get khmer then we can go for any of the aztecs or HRE happily
Nicolae Carpathia: are rathauses that powerful?
ReallyEvilMuffin: If we go khmer, and he takes Aosaka we could go mansa or imp leaders
Nicolae Carpathia: ah, so the decision is leader or civ pick first
ReallyEvilMuffin: Its cylindrical so not as much as 33. But at 5-6 cities I was having 10 gpt mait in the farther cities
ReallyEvilMuffin: its a quite big difference, and pretty much makes them must build
ReallyEvilMuffin: and synergises nicely with ICS too
Nicolae Carpathia: still, khmer is the best option for civ, while asoka and mansa are both viable options for leader
ReallyEvilMuffin: It will be a while pre SP
ReallyEvilMuffin: Its your game dude dont forget im just advising
Nicolae Carpathia: we can prob manage with regular courthouses, while the early turns are most crucial
ReallyEvilMuffin: True
ReallyEvilMuffin: so Khmer?
Nicolae Carpathia: yep, khmer, then asoka, if not, mansa
ReallyEvilMuffin: ok sorted
ReallyEvilMuffin: post that in the thread and should speed it up
Nicolae Carpathia: done
ReallyEvilMuffin: for a start, SIP is obvious
Nicolae Carpathia: yep
Nicolae Carpathia: then 2-->1 whip workers
ReallyEvilMuffin: change to all the civics, worker first and then can overflow into a 1t workboat in the cap
ReallyEvilMuffin: However I'm not sure what the worker should do
ReallyEvilMuffin: Horse isn't gonna be used much so pasturing might be a little bit of a waste over chopping
Nicolae Carpathia: in my sims, i was sending my initial settler 3N and putting the pigs in first ring
ReallyEvilMuffin: and second city site is important, but difficult to decide
Nicolae Carpathia: culture builds are an option if we desperately want to pop borders early
ReallyEvilMuffin: yeah if that is still coast that is a solid choice
ReallyEvilMuffin: but if there aren't coasts that becomes not ideal
Nicolae Carpathia: ~fog lies~
ReallyEvilMuffin: Scooter suffered by settling a little too close together early
Nicolae Carpathia: oh good point, want to grab as many resources
ReallyEvilMuffin: and with 2 cities I think nabbing extra resources early is crucial
Nicolae Carpathia: ok, so perhaps we slot in a culture build before the first worker
Nicolae Carpathia: to get those pigs in 2nd ring asap
ReallyEvilMuffin: no I think that isn't needed too much - building the worker the pigs are neither here nor there, then we will have the workboat out and be able to use the 3/1/4 whales after that
ReallyEvilMuffin: I think pushing borders might be a waste there
ReallyEvilMuffin: the gain isn't big enough IMO
ReallyEvilMuffin: but both should be tried
Nicolae Carpathia: my intuition says its worth it because i want to improve the +3 food pigs and +4 food corn asap over the +1 food whales
Nicolae Carpathia: but the question is how many turns that would cost in lost worker turns
Nicolae Carpathia: alternatively, send the initial settler with the worker
ReallyEvilMuffin: I was getting the pigs on the turn they were getting culture around turn 6
ReallyEvilMuffin: Really if we are deciding on taj, second settler should be heading towards the marble
Nicolae Carpathia: im mentally leaning away from taj and towards the monk economy
Nicolae Carpathia: i think there's better synergy there
ReallyEvilMuffin: ok
ReallyEvilMuffin: I think that will be a less desired option
ReallyEvilMuffin: plus we can expend the GE straight away doing that
Nicolae Carpathia: less desired also means we can get away with sneaking in extra expands
ReallyEvilMuffin: yeah
ReallyEvilMuffin: also the hammer bonus doesn't obsolete with sci meth
ReallyEvilMuffin: just the gold/sci
Nicolae Carpathia: neato
ReallyEvilMuffin: cool
ReallyEvilMuffin: I don't think there is much to do before seeing what lies in game now really
ReallyEvilMuffin: depends where there is extra land to me
ReallyEvilMuffin: IMO
ReallyEvilMuffin: ok, I needs to shoot now, hope that helped
Nicolae Carpathia: very productive
Nicolae Carpathia: cya man
tl;dr: we're going to skip going for Taj. Instead, we'll try our hand at the Monk economy to power our way through the early game. Synergises with ORG city spam.
(August 9th, 2016, 19:26)El Grillo Wrote: Rushing will be a lot harder without immediate access to galleons, especially if the map is designed to avoid mini-duels.
(cough cough PB34)
I don't actually think the other players will opt for early civ picks, so we could be left with whichever decent leader we can pick up, and then the most synergistic civ to pair it with.
i swear if i ever make a map again i'm starting everyone off on their own private island
