Sprites are underpowered?

[Seravy]

20 map with "A" algorithm and least forgiving, 1500 value for disabling high end monsters :

Code:

Opening file #1
7 Nagas + 0 None 208 Node/Tower Distance :6
6 Phantom Beast + 0 None 532 Node/Tower Distance :4
7 Earth Elemental + 1 War Bears 1573  Distance :4
2 Nagas + 6 Phantom Warriors 300  Distance :10
3 Sprites + 3 War Bears 390  Distance :5
2 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 218  Distance :4

Opening file #2
7 Earth Elemental + 2 War Bears 1628 Node/Tower Distance :7
6 Phantom Beast + 0 None 718 Node/Tower Distance :5
5 Werewolves + 0 None 743  Distance :7
2 Zombies + 2 Skeleton 228  Distance :3
5 Hell Hounds + 0 None 255  Distance :14

Opening file #3
6 Phantom Beast + 0 None 525 Node/Tower Distance :10
1 Cockatrices + 7 War Bears 128 Node/Tower Distance :13
5 Cockatrices + 1 War Bears 980  Distance :14

Opening file #4
4 Cockatrices + 3 Earth Elemental 1245 Node/Tower Distance :2
4 Phantom Beast + 0 None 518 Node/Tower Distance :7
1 Phantom Beast + 4 Nagas 498  Distance :13
3 Hell Hounds + 1 Fire Elemental 283  Distance :13
4 Zombies + 0 None 258  Distance :14
9 Zombies + 0 None 322  Distance :14

Opening file #5
7 Earth Elemental + 1 Sprites 1335 Node/Tower Distance :8
4 Great Lizard + 1 Cockatrices 1525  Distance :15
6 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 768  Distance :7
7 Unicorns + 1 Guardian Spirit 1170  Distance :12
8 Nagas + 0 None 678  Distance :13
3 Werewolves + 0 None 493  Distance :8
1 Cockatrices + 2 Earth Elemental 525  Distance :11
2 Werewolves + 3 Zombies 323  Distance :7
2 Unicorns + 5 Guardian Spirit 768  Distance :7
4 Fire Elemental + 0 None 88  Distance :7
2 War Bears + 0 None 78  Distance :13

Opening file #6
2 Zombies + 2 Skeleton 228  Distance :15
3 Nagas + 3 Phantom Warriors 300  Distance :13
1 Nagas + 4 Phantom Warriors 288  Distance :3
2 Zombies + 5 Skeleton 288  Distance :14
7 Skeleton + 0 None 258  Distance :15
1 Unicorns + 4 Guardian Spirit 118  Distance :9
1 Phantom Beast + 1 Nagas 240  Distance :10
6 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 570  Distance :10

Opening file #7
4 Phantom Beast + 3 Nagas 728 Node/Tower Distance :6
4 Cockatrices + 0 None 750  Distance :10
2 War Bears + 0 None 228  Distance :3
3 Werewolves + 3 Skeleton 412  Distance :10
1 Chaos Spawn + 7 Fire Elemental 377  Distance :8
5 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 668  Distance :14
5 Hell Hounds + 2 Fire Elemental 403  Distance :15

Opening file #8
6 Phantom Beast + 2 Nagas 637 Node/Tower Distance :11
6 Phantom Beast + 0 None 420 Node/Tower Distance :12
5 Cockatrices + 2 War Bears 1350 Node/Tower Distance :11
4 Phantom Beast + 4 Phantom Warriors 600 Node/Tower Distance :6
2 Earth Elemental + 7 War Bears 900  Distance :3
2 Werewolves + 7 Zombies 213  Distance :12
2 Phantom Beast + 7 Phantom Warriors 493  Distance :13
4 Phantom Beast + 2 Nagas 258  Distance :13

Opening file #9
3 Earth Elemental + 3 War Bears 83 Node/Tower Distance :14
4 Unicorns + 4 Guardian Spirit 968  Distance :46
1 Werewolves + 5 Zombies 307  Distance :13
4 Chaos Spawn + 4 Hell Hounds 1167  Distance :46
1 Hell Hounds + 4 Fire Elemental 133  Distance :7
4 Skeleton + 0 None 198  Distance :46
2 Nagas + 0 None 258  Distance :15
1 Sprites + 0 None 198  Distance :2
1 Hell Hounds + 4 Fire Elemental 283  Distance :9
3 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 118  Distance :9

Opening file #10
4 Chaos Spawn + 1 Hell Hounds 1313 Node/Tower Distance :14
7 Unicorns + 0 None 1518  Distance :6
1 Earth Elemental + 7 War Bears 703  Distance :5
2 Zombies + 2 Skeleton 228  Distance :45

Opening file #11
7 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 718 Node/Tower Distance :15
6 Nagas + 3 Phantom Warriors 0 Node/Tower Distance :9
4 Nagas + 5 Phantom Warriors 277 Node/Tower Distance :13
4 Cockatrices + 0 None 757  Distance :15
6 Unicorns + 2 Guardian Spirit 1018  Distance :13
1 Phantom Beast + 1 Nagas 270  Distance :13
2 Zombies + 2 Skeleton 200  Distance :11
1 Sprites + 0 None 198  Distance :5
1 Werewolves + 5 Skeleton 343  Distance :7

Opening file #12
4 Phantom Beast + 5 Nagas 840 Node/Tower Distance :5
8 Phantom Beast + 0 None 760 Node/Tower Distance :9
1 Cockatrices + 4 War Bears 563  Distance :12
8 Nagas + 0 None 502  Distance :13
1 Hell Hounds + 4 Fire Elemental 283  Distance :4
1 Unicorns + 6 Guardian Spirit 357  Distance :11

Opening file #13
9 Phantom Beast + 0 None 868 Node/Tower Distance :14
4 Cockatrices + 3 Earth Elemental 1207 Node/Tower Distance :13
4 Phantom Beast + 0 None 518 Node/Tower Distance :15
4 Unicorns + 3 Guardian Spirit 795  Distance :10
1 Unicorns + 0 None 232  Distance :8
2 Zombies + 2 Skeleton 228  Distance :3
1 Cockatrices + 0 None 343  Distance :12
2 Sprites + 3 War Bears 443  Distance :11
4 Phantom Warriors + 0 None 218  Distance :14
1 Sprites + 1 War Bears 253  Distance :11

Opening file #14
7 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 468  Distance :3
3 War Bears + 0 None 283  Distance :5

Opening file #15
3 Cockatrices + 1 Sprites 273 Node/Tower Distance :3
4 Phantom Beast + 3 Nagas 728 Node/Tower Distance :6
6 Werewolves + 1 Zombies 480  Distance :6
4 Chaos Spawn + 1 Hell Hounds 1020  Distance :8
4 Sprites + 4 War Bears 658  Distance :15
1 Unicorns + 4 Guardian Spirit 518  Distance :13
5 Phantom Beast + 0 None 618  Distance :14
4 Hell Hounds + 0 None 148  Distance :4
5 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 495  Distance :6
3 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 268  Distance :4

Opening file #16
7 Skeleton + 0 None 258  Distance :14

Opening file #17
2 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 582 Node/Tower Distance :5
4 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 982 Node/Tower Distance :9
8 Phantom Beast + 0 None 682 Node/Tower Distance :15
3 Unicorns + 6 Guardian Spirit 757  Distance :8
3 Nagas + 2 Phantom Warriors 277  Distance :11
2 Sprites + 0 None 278  Distance :9
2 Unicorns + 1 Guardian Spirit 420  Distance :9
1 Werewolves + 4 Zombies 383  Distance :3
4 Nagas + 5 Phantom Warriors 523  Distance :10
3 Sprites + 2 War Bears 345  Distance :11

Opening file #18
3 Phantom Beast + 6 Phantom Warriors 420  Distance :14
4 Unicorns + 4 Guardian Spirit 893  Distance :5
4 Werewolves + 0 None 0  Distance :6
4 Sprites + 0 None 288  Distance :5
3 Werewolves + 1 Zombies 378  Distance :5
1 Earth Elemental + 8 War Bears 158  Distance :15

Opening file #19
7 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 868 Node/Tower Distance :4
9 Phantom Beast + 0 None 1018 Node/Tower Distance :7
8 Phantom Beast + 0 None 768  Distance :12
1 Hell Hounds + 7 Fire Elemental 373  Distance :5
1 Unicorns + 4 Guardian Spirit 80  Distance :15

Opening file #20
1 Cockatrices + 0 None 343  Distance :4

Average total treasure :4111

Map 1 : Good
Map 2 : Good
Map 3 : Fail - few targets, high distances.
Map 4 : Good (barely)
Map 5 : Acceptable - looks good but those nodes are quite hard/expensive to get
Map 6 : Fail - no node, only low value treasure, albeit numerous - also large distances
Map 7 : Acceptable
Map 8 : Acceptable - nice nodes but most of them phantoms which are easy with other strategies - nothing really stands out as something only sprites can do well
Map 9 : Fail. targets with distance=46 mean 14 through the edge of the map. Everything is very far or very low value.
Map 10 : Acceptable - High value Unicorn lair will earn back investment but not enough to really gain momentum and node with 4 spawns is somewhat hard
Map 11 : Acceptable - would be good but distances are too high
Map 12 : Acceptable - nodes easy enough without sprites, they are not really needed
Map 13 : Acceptable - good targets but all very far
Map 14 : Fail, no targets
Map 15 : Good I think
Map 16 : Fail, no targets
Map 17 : Acceptable or fail, unsure - Chaos Spawn nodes are probably very hard, I haven't actually tested if Sprites can deal with these 10 armor units at all. Phantom node is 15 distance, too much
Map 18 : Acceptable - no node but investment can be earned back from unicorns etc
Map 19 : Acceptable - only phantom targets which are easy with anything (yes sprites are a tiny bit better but not by a relevant amount)
Map 20 : Fail, no targets

Overall : 4x Good, 10 Acceptable, 6 Fail, while the maps seemed better than before, the difference wasn't enough to make them a higher category. Most of the targets are phantoms which are simply not hard enough with other units to make the sprites tactic "rank up" to good.

...I wonder what else can be done. Maybe if we removed "no earth elemental without other monsters" then it could be better. Earth elementals are a fairly good target for sprites while not easy with other units, making them relevant for this (too much hit points and armor for normal bowmen, at least longbowmen needed), while their treasure value is not excessively high like Wyrms to need removal for balance reasons.

[Nelphine]

but those 3 picks are on TOP of whatever else you're doing.  that means as long as your main strategy is only 9 picks, then you have a good strategy PLUS sprites for a possible great start.

That's why it can't be as high as 50%.  If its higher than 50%, then you provide your main strategy a huge boost.  And since earth lore is really good for many strategies, that means sprites really are only 1 pick.  1 pick to give a good strategy a great start, can't be reliable.  Or everyone will just incorporate it into all strategies.  You don't want EVERY human player to choose sprites off the start because it has a good chance of being a great boost to whatever they're actually planning.

No strategy is 9 picks - you always need more spells and books if you can get them.
I agree it can't be reliable - but having the treasure on the map does not make it so by itself. Going for a Sprites leaves you vulnerable against early attacks, making it inherently riskier than other strategies.

Yes, some strategies are 9 or less picks. Look at my current spearmen experimentation. That's a 2 pick strategy. Everything else improves that strategy but isn't actually required. The other things improve the strategy. So the decision becomes - does spellweaver improve it more? Or does channeler improve it more?

That means you're pitting sprites against other 1 or 2 point improvements. Getting a single early node due to sprites is absolutely huge. Look at all the discussions we've had about archmage and mana focusing and how they affect the early game.

If sprites are reliable, that means I can pick them for 1 or 2 picks, and I know there's probably going to be targets that are worthwhile.. Which means I can summon 1-3 of them, and probably get an early node. An early node is far far better than mana focusing ever was.

Which makes sprites more important to every strategy than anything else. Going for a life/chaos build? Save 2 picks for sprites for that early node.

[Seravy]

Which makes sprites more important to every strategy than anything else. Going for a life/chaos build? Save 2 picks for sprites for that early node.

Or don't. Produce some bowmen and you're set. (at least for the maps marked "acceptable". "good" maps are better.) Use the picks to get Holy Weapon so your bowmen can do it faster.

Next 20 map with less restriction on earth elementals and wyrms :

Code:

Opening file #1
3 Earth Elemental + 0 None 532 Node/Tower Distance :13
6 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 0  Distance :4
4 Skeleton + 0 None 198  Distance :12
3 Sprites + 2 War Bears 468  Distance :7
2 Nagas + 5 Phantom Warriors 383  Distance :6
4 Hell Hounds + 0 None 148  Distance :6
3 Hell Hounds + 5 Fire Elemental 403  Distance :7

Opening file #2
5 Phantom Beast + 0 None 0 Node/Tower Distance :9
5 Cockatrices + 1 War Bears 1067 Node/Tower Distance :7
6 Phantom Beast + 0 None 718 Node/Tower Distance :12
6 Phantom Beast + 0 None 700  Distance :2
2 Nagas + 7 Phantom Warriors 240  Distance :7
2 Chaos Spawn + 1 Fire Elemental 700  Distance :15
4 Zombies + 0 None 258  Distance :13

Opening file #3
3 Sprites + 3 War Bears 390 Node/Tower Distance :7
6 Earth Elemental + 3 War Bears 883  Distance :6
7 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 345  Distance :15
1 Unicorns + 4 Guardian Spirit 368  Distance :11
9 Phantom Warriors + 0 None 343  Distance :7
1 Unicorns + 3 Guardian Spirit 345  Distance :10
2 Nagas + 0 None 258  Distance :8
5 Werewolves + 0 None 442  Distance :12

Opening file #4
3 Werewolves + 0 None 367  Distance :5
5 Nagas + 0 None 468  Distance :4

Opening file #5
8 Phantom Beast + 0 None 918 Node/Tower Distance :13
3 Earth Elemental + 2 War Bears 828  Distance :9
7 Earth Elemental + 0 None 1020  Distance :12
9 War Bears + 0 None 463  Distance :8
8 Phantom Warriors + 0 None 232  Distance :9
9 War Bears + 0 None 463  Distance :7
2 Unicorns + 2 Guardian Spirit 0  Distance :12

Opening file #6
7 Nagas + 0 None 505 Node/Tower Distance :14
4 Phantom Beast + 3 Nagas 300 Node/Tower Distance :12
7 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 868 Node/Tower Distance :13
4 Cockatrices + 0 None 827 Node/Tower Distance :12
4 Cockatrices + 1 Sprites 705 Node/Tower Distance :5
5 Cockatrices + 3 Earth Elemental 1470  Distance :3
7 Skeleton + 0 None 258  Distance :6
1 Earth Elemental + 8 War Bears 592  Distance :10
3 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 268  Distance :3
7 War Bears + 0 None 375  Distance :10
1 Cockatrices + 3 Sprites 433  Distance :11

Opening file #7
4 Fire Elemental + 0 None 238  Distance :13
2 Zombies + 2 Skeleton 228  Distance :13

Opening file #8
6 Cockatrices + 2 Sprites 1140 Node/Tower Distance :7
4 Phantom Beast + 0 None 518 Node/Tower Distance :8
3 Sprites + 1 War Bears 413  Distance :14
3 Earth Elemental + 1 War Bears 277  Distance :6
3 Sprites + 1 War Bears 413  Distance :9

Opening file #9
4 Phantom Beast + 3 Nagas 328 Node/Tower Distance :12
2 Unicorns + 6 Guardian Spirit 607  Distance :7
2 Sprites + 0 None 100  Distance :5
5 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 218  Distance :9
7 War Bears + 0 None 503  Distance :11

Opening file #10
6 Unicorns + 3 Guardian Spirit 1095  Distance :13
1 Nagas + 0 None 188  Distance :13
5 Nagas + 0 None 468  Distance :13
1 Unicorns + 7 Guardian Spirit 68  Distance :12
6 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 768  Distance :6

Opening file #11
4 Earth Elemental + 0 None 620 Node/Tower Distance :13
5 Earth Elemental + 0 None 952 Node/Tower Distance :5
3 Cockatrices + 1 Sprites 790 Node/Tower Distance :14
1 Sprites + 1 War Bears 253  Distance :10
4 Sprites + 0 None 438  Distance :11
5 Phantom Beast + 2 Nagas 158  Distance :15
3 Werewolves + 0 None 93  Distance :9
9 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 307  Distance :6
1 Sprites + 0 None 198  Distance :11
4 Sprites + 0 None 322  Distance :6
1 Unicorns + 4 Guardian Spirit 518  Distance :15

Opening file #12
9 Earth Elemental + 0 None 1300 Node/Tower Distance :10
1 Cockatrices + 7 War Bears 490 Node/Tower Distance :14
1 Werewolves + 3 Zombies 198  Distance :14
7 Fire Elemental + 0 None 328  Distance :6

Opening file #13
2 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 622 Node/Tower Distance :12
9 War Bears + 0 None 0  Distance :10

Opening file #14
2 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 552 Node/Tower Distance :15
1 Unicorns + 6 Guardian Spirit 618  Distance :14
1 Unicorns + 6 Guardian Spirit 618  Distance :15
1 Chaos Spawn + 3 Hell Hounds 153  Distance :15
4 Werewolves + 0 None 457  Distance :12
1 Werewolves + 8 Skeleton 253  Distance :7
4 Sprites + 0 None 288  Distance :13

Opening file #15
7 Earth Elemental + 0 None 1500 Node/Tower Distance :15
8 Phantom Beast + 0 None 768 Node/Tower Distance :8
6 Werewolves + 0 None 318  Distance :2
4 Sprites + 5 War Bears 663  Distance :9
1 Unicorns + 0 None 160  Distance :9

Opening file #16
7 Earth Elemental + 2 War Bears 828 Node/Tower Distance :13
5 Cockatrices + 2 Sprites 1403  Distance :11
4 Zombies + 0 None 108  Distance :11
7 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 345  Distance :14
3 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 318  Distance :2

Opening file #17
1 Cockatrices + 7 War Bears 728 Node/Tower Distance :15
5 Earth Elemental + 0 None 832 Node/Tower Distance :15
1 Sprites + 5 War Bears 473  Distance :11
7 Earth Elemental + 2 War Bears 1215  Distance :4
5 Hell Hounds + 2 Fire Elemental 403  Distance :10
2 Unicorns + 5 Guardian Spirit 768  Distance :13

Opening file #18
7 Earth Elemental + 0 None 1132 Node/Tower Distance :12
5 Cockatrices + 3 Earth Elemental 1530 Node/Tower Distance :14
6 Nagas + 1 Phantom Warriors 413  Distance :10
5 Unicorns + 0 None 518  Distance :8
6 Earth Elemental + 0 None 982  Distance :14
2 Cockatrices + 0 None 568  Distance :8
1 Cockatrices + 6 Earth Elemental 993  Distance :15
5 Hell Hounds + 0 None 255  Distance :5
3 Werewolves + 1 Zombies 128  Distance :5

Opening file #19
6 Werewolves + 0 None 645  Distance :12
3 Unicorns + 2 Guardian Spirit 218  Distance :10
1 Phantom Beast + 0 None 218  Distance :6
3 Werewolves + 5 Zombies 668  Distance :15
7 Nagas + 0 None 208  Distance :14

Opening file #20
4 Great Lizard + 2 Cockatrices 550 Node/Tower Distance :13
1 Cockatrices + 7 War Bears 728 Node/Tower Distance :7
5 Cockatrices + 2 War Bears 1012 Node/Tower Distance :13
8 Phantom Beast + 0 None 918 Node/Tower Distance :10
2 Sprites + 5 War Bears 553  Distance :12

Average total treasure :3885

Map 1 : Acceptable - node is too far
Map 2 : Good - 3 nodes at medium distance and one of which won't go down to bowmen
Map 3 : Acceptable - node is actually better with bowmen due to sprites as defenders. Earth Elemental treasure can at least make sure you can break even.
Map 4 : Fail
Map 5 : Acceptable - fairly good sums in the first 3 targets but they are at medium distance
Map 6 : Good - 5 good nodes but they are all fairly distant or hard to take out. Nice pile of money near starting locations but 5 cockatrices require many sprites to fight. I See no chance of turning overpowered.
Map 7 : Fail
Map 8 : Acceptable
Map 9 : Fail, barely pays for itself, only node is far and easy sorcery
Map 10 : Fail - no nodes and targets too far
Map 11 : Good - three nature nodes which are hard without sprites. Two of them very far though.
Map 12 : Acceptable - two good nodes but distance is bad and nothing else
Map 13 : Fail
Map 14 : Fail, everything 12+distance
Map 15 : Acceptable
Map 16 : Acceptable
Map 17 : Acceptable - 1200 treasure form 7 EE nearby. Nodes both 15 distance, unreliable
Map 18 : Acceptable - good medium value targets but all 10+ distances
Map 19 : Fail
Map 20 : Acceptable/Good - 4 nodes but nothing else, distances medium. Would expect better but it's not bad.

Overall still only 3 and a half good maps and 7 fails. Meh.

Now I can either push some incompatible monsters over the 300 threshold or raise the barrier to 1800...

[Nelphine]

I'd say try this. Its possibly still a problem, but the whole system is still fairly new. See what it actually gets you. For instance 1 or 2 fire giants is totally sprites compatible. Even a single storm giant can be done if you have a few other targets first to build up a stack.

On the other hand chimera are actually fairly strong against my playstyle.. What's their value right now?

I also think you underestimate how far you can actually reach with sprites if you have earth lore. I wouldn't blink about 12-15 squares for a node.

[Seravy]

I'd say try this. Its possibly still a problem, but the whole system is still fairly new. See what it actually gets you. For instance 1 or 2 fire giants is totally sprites compatible. Even a single storm giant can be done if you have a few other targets first to build up a stack.

On the other hand chimera are actually fairly strong against my playstyle.. What's their value right now?

I also think you underestimate how far you can actually reach with sprites if you have earth lore. I wouldn't blink about 12-15 squares for a node.

Chimeras are 275. Was considering to raise them to 301 but I really don't like the idea of making them a high end node exclusive monster.

Fire giants and Storm Giants, the problem with those is even Earth Lore can't tell you if it's 1 or 2. At 2, you shouldn't attempt them with less than max amount of sprites which is fairly hard to build up (say hi to 18 maintenance) and even then suffer losses so they are a pretty awful target. At 1, you might be able to profit but won't know the number. But for Fire Giants they also wont' work if they come with hounds - you can either kill the 6 hounds or the 2 fire giants but not the two together and there isn't much else they can appear with (Fire Elementals being the only other). So I prefer to not include these two as they are very unlikely to work in the player's favor.
Instead I included Demon - I think this is fairly safe to fight if there are 2 or fewer -they can kill 2 sprites but that's all and they are easy to kill. Mana Leak might be a problem but the chance of Wrack+Mana Leak together from exactly 2 demons is low and without both you can still either kill the remaining zombies/skeletons/wolves, or retreat safely.

One part of the problem is I think we lowered value of some doable monsters too much so 800-1500 value targets won't be able to have them even though they are restricted to low cost monsters - they just don't add up to enough points to appear. Which forces impossible monsters such as Air Elementals to appear in all of these.

Next time I'll try with these parameters :
War Bears value up to 70
Fire elemental to 40
Hell Hounds to 55 (these are pretty dangerous with their 3 move and breath attack, shouldn't have been that cheap)
Werewolves to 140 (they're easy to damage but fast and hit hard)
Zombies to 40
Cockatrices to 250
Phantom Beast to 130 (this is the main culprit for poor results - 900 is the max Sorcery monsters can spend without an Air Elemental or stronger monster if these are worth 100)
Nagas to 85 (honestly these are more durable than beasts and often harder to kill, maybe it should be the reverse - nagas 130 and beasts 80-100? I think I'll try that!)

and the other problem is, while weak lairs do exist by definition, their value is just too crappy. At 30-630 on Arcanus, these won't really contribute much to any strategy - average value is a mere 330. I raised this to 30-930 and on Myrror 30-1230. Since they are now unable to contain strong monsters, this is safe to do without the risk of including those.

Edit : I'm aware of Earth Lore working perfectly fine for 15 distance nodes, which is why the tool counts them. However at a distance of 15, you might not find it because you scanned other directions, or the enemy wizard might be too close and take it out/attack your sprite stack on the way. So they are a 50-50 target, you won't be able to get them all, especially if they are in opposite directions (takes 15 turns for sprites to move 30 tiles)

[Nelphine]

Hm. What if you add, above 1000, you can have one strong monster, as long as there's still at least 7+ monsters? That way those 1200-1500 point sorcery nodes could get 1 storm giant and a pile of phantom warriors, or something like that. (Or just go back to making it based on total number of monsters instead of having a cutoff point.)

[Seravy]

Hm. What if you add, above 1000, you can have one strong monster, as long as there's still at least 7+ monsters? That way those 1200-1500 point sorcery nodes could get 1 storm giant and a pile of phantom warriors, or something like that. (Or just go back to making it based on total number of monsters instead of having a cutoff point.)

Or they can get a djinn or sky drake. No, I think the cutoff point works fine.
Last set of maps for now, same 1500 cutoff point, but the above changes to budgets and monster values results in this :

Code:

Opening file #1
2 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 568 Node/Tower Distance :10
9 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 568  Distance :11
1 Werewolves + 1 Zombies 298  Distance :15
4 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 560  Distance :7

Opening file #2
2 Chaos Spawn + 5 Fire Elemental 318 Node/Tower Distance :3
5 Unicorns + 0 None 832  Distance :12
3 Werewolves + 5 Skeleton 472  Distance :9
3 Cockatrices + 1 Earth Elemental 1068  Distance :12
1 Chaos Spawn + 8 Fire Elemental 138  Distance :8

Opening file #3
7 Earth Elemental + 1 War Bears 788  Distance :10
7 Unicorns + 1 Guardian Spirit 420  Distance :9
1 Earth Elemental + 7 War Bears 408  Distance :11
7 Nagas + 1 Phantom Warriors 1057  Distance :9
1 Demon + 5 Zombies 412  Distance :13
5 Werewolves + 3 Zombies 938  Distance :3
2 Werewolves + 0 None 398  Distance :7

Opening file #4
7 Earth Elemental + 1 Sprites 912 Node/Tower Distance :14
1 Earth Elemental + 8 War Bears 878 Node/Tower Distance :13
1 Chaos Spawn + 7 Fire Elemental 548  Distance :14
1 Unicorns + 4 Guardian Spirit 382  Distance :11
2 Cockatrices + 1 War Bears 688  Distance :5

Opening file #5
2 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 718 Node/Tower Distance :4
1 Great Wyrm + 2 Great Lizard 1290  Distance :14
3 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 268  Distance :12
3 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 268  Distance :13
2 Unicorns + 1 Guardian Spirit 440  Distance :2

Opening file #6
4 Cockatrices + 5 Earth Elemental 1582 Node/Tower Distance :13
6 Nagas + 3 Phantom Warriors 652  Distance :9
1 Nagas + 7 Phantom Beast 948  Distance :10
2 Chaos Spawn + 3 Fire Elemental 238  Distance :8
9 Skeleton + 0 None 298  Distance :12
3 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 268  Distance :10
2 Demon + 7 Zombies 878  Distance :15

Opening file #7
4 Cockatrices + 3 War Bears 728 Node/Tower Distance :3
6 Nagas + 1 Phantom Warriors 752 Node/Tower Distance :3
6 Werewolves + 3 Skeleton 882  Distance :5
1 Demon + 5 Skeleton 58  Distance :8
3 Unicorns + 1 Guardian Spirit 768  Distance :12
3 Phantom Beast + 5 Phantom Warriors 413  Distance :11
9 Unicorns + 0 None 568  Distance :6
2 Earth Elemental + 0 None 368  Distance :15

Opening file #8
2 Cockatrices + 0 None 467 Node/Tower Distance :4
3 Unicorns + 6 Guardian Spirit 777  Distance :12
8 Nagas + 0 None 520  Distance :8
1 Great Wyrm + 2 Great Lizard 1357  Distance :14
3 Cockatrices + 0 None 645  Distance :10

Opening file #9
4 Nagas + 3 Phantom Warriors 725 Node/Tower Distance :7
3 Hell Hounds + 6 Fire Elemental 390 Node/Tower Distance :4
6 Phantom Beast + 0 None 118  Distance :4
7 Phantom Beast + 2 Phantom Warriors 626  Distance :14
8 Phantom Beast + 1 Phantom Warriors 705  Distance :45

Opening file #10
5 Phantom Beast + 0 None 457 Node/Tower Distance :5
7 Nagas + 1 Phantom Beast 840  Distance :13
2 Cockatrices + 5 War Bears 968  Distance :5
1 Nagas + 6 Phantom Beast 630  Distance :14
2 Hell Hounds + 2 Fire Elemental 308  Distance :6
5 Hell Hounds + 0 None 393  Distance :5
2 Hell Hounds + 0 None 228  Distance :45

Opening file #11
3 Nagas + 4 Phantom Warriors 474 Node/Tower Distance :13
7 Earth Elemental + 1 Sprites 1317 Node/Tower Distance :2
5 Earth Elemental + 4 War Bears 592  Distance :3
1 Demon + 8 Skeleton 270  Distance :14
1 Unicorns + 4 Guardian Spirit 118  Distance :15
1 Cockatrices + 7 War Bears 687  Distance :4
1 Cockatrices + 0 None 368  Distance :13
2 Werewolves + 6 Skeleton 480  Distance :13
1 Cockatrices + 4 War Bears 648  Distance :15
3 Earth Elemental + 4 Sprites 772  Distance :10
2 Phantom Beast + 7 Phantom Warriors 390  Distance :11

Opening file #12
6 Nagas + 1 Phantom Warriors 657 Node/Tower Distance :3
2 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 218  Distance :13
6 Werewolves + 0 None 732  Distance :6
7 Zombies + 0 None 292  Distance :4

Opening file #13
7 Nagas + 0 None 428 Node/Tower Distance :13
7 Earth Elemental + 1 War Bears 1045 Node/Tower Distance :12
7 Nagas + 1 Phantom Beast 1090 Node/Tower Distance :11
6 Nagas + 1 Phantom Warriors 752 Node/Tower Distance :11
4 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 1168 Node/Tower Distance :2
9 Earth Elemental + 0 None 1118 Node/Tower Distance :6
2 Hell Hounds + 6 Fire Elemental 68  Distance :8
3 Unicorns + 2 Guardian Spirit 818  Distance :10
7 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 345  Distance :5
9 Unicorns + 0 None 1643  Distance :9
4 Werewolves + 0 None 502  Distance :6
5 Zombies + 4 Skeleton 398  Distance :7

Opening file #14
2 Earth Elemental + 0 None 368 Node/Tower Distance :6
7 Earth Elemental + 0 None 1518  Distance :13
1 Nagas + 2 Phantom Warriors 306  Distance :14
4 Hell Hounds + 0 None 247  Distance :9
2 Chaos Spawn + 2 Hell Hounds 828  Distance :11

Opening file #15
5 Earth Elemental + 0 None 1020 Node/Tower Distance :8
4 Chaos Spawn + 5 Hell Hounds 1380 Node/Tower Distance :10
4 Earth Elemental + 0 None 795 Node/Tower Distance :13
3 Nagas + 1 Phantom Beast 508  Distance :9

Opening file #16
2 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 568 Node/Tower Distance :10
6 Cockatrices + 0 None 1207 Node/Tower Distance :2
9 Phantom Beast + 0 None 218 Node/Tower Distance :12
5 Cockatrices + 0 None 1143 Node/Tower Distance :10
7 War Bears + 0 None 450 Node/Tower Distance :14
3 Werewolves + 4 Skeleton 618  Distance :9
7 Nagas + 0 None 897  Distance :11
2 Demon + 1 Zombies 535  Distance :6
1 Earth Elemental + 2 War Bears 458  Distance :8

Opening file #17
2 Great Wyrm + 1 Great Lizard 1587 Node/Tower Distance :10
5 Cockatrices + 4 War Bears 930 Node/Tower Distance :13
2 Nagas + 7 Phantom Beast 827  Distance :13
4 Zombies + 0 None 278  Distance :7
4 Zombies + 0 None 250  Distance :8
1 Demon + 1 Werewolves 98  Distance :11

Opening file #18
1 Chaos Spawn + 5 Fire Elemental 618 Node/Tower Distance :14
6 Nagas + 1 Phantom Warriors 690 Node/Tower Distance :10
5 Nagas + 3 Phantom Warriors 637 Node/Tower Distance :14
5 Zombies + 1 Skeleton 338  Distance :15
3 Zombies + 0 None 238  Distance :3

Opening file #19
7 Earth Elemental + 0 None 1518 Node/Tower Distance :9
2 Werewolves + 5 Zombies 598  Distance :14
2 Unicorns + 4 Guardian Spirit 532  Distance :9

Opening file #20
4 Cockatrices + 0 None 818 Node/Tower Distance :6
6 Earth Elemental + 0 None 1318 Node/Tower Distance :45
4 Cockatrices + 0 None 518 Node/Tower Distance :11
6 Nagas + 1 Phantom Warriors 690 Node/Tower Distance :10
1 Nagas + 4 Phantom Warriors 364  Distance :12
1 Demon + 0 None 200  Distance :8
7 Nagas + 2 Phantom Warriors 510  Distance :6

Average total treasure :4960

Based on the reported average value alone, we are getting closer to the solution. (original one had 5900 reported so it's still below though)

Map 1 : Fail but with a chance to break even if lucky
Map 2 : Good - nearby node is doable and contains 2 Chaos Spawn - very hard to do without sprites. Other targets provide fair sums of 800-1000. Not amazing but this can work.
Map 3 : Acceptable - no nodes but fairly good sums of money from several sprite only targets
Map 4 : Acceptable - targets very far and not many but decent
Map 5 : Acceptable - nearby chaos spawn node, decent treasure from a single distant lair but not much else
Map 6 : Acceptable - node is far and hard, other targets ok but could be better.
Map 7 : Good - two nearby nodes and some other decent targets
Map 8 : Acceptable - 1 node and 2 distant but fairly good value lairs.
Map 9 : Acceptable - two nearby nodes, but the kind which is easy with any unit. Not much else.
Map 10 : Acceptable - one phantom node, some medium distance medium value targets
Map 11 : Good - nearby, good value node that require sprites to clear. Other targets leave something to be desired but are enough
Map 12 : Acceptable - early Nagas node but nothing to follow it though
Map 13 : Good, maybe Overpowered - plenty of decent targets including half a dozen nodes and over 1k treasure in many of them
Map 14 : Acceptable - nearby node with 2 Earth Elementals and one distant target for 1.3k both very suitable for sprites but not much else.
Map 15 : Good - two earth elemental nodes. I think the 4 chaos spawns with 5 hell hounds is too much to clear but doable by sacrificing some bowmen to first clear the hounds. Not much else but 3 nodes with 1k treasure in each is enough to be worth investing into the strategy.
Map 16 : Good - five doable nodes at varying distances. Unfortunately the closest one is the hardest and can't be done first, otherwise could be overpowered.
Map 17 : Fail or Acceptable - two nodes that require high investment and not much to fuel the costs. Need luck to discover and get distance 13 lair.
Map 18 : Acceptable - three nodes but far and two of them are easy naga nodes.
Map 19 : Acceptable - High value, doable node at a fair distance, but nothing else to get.
Map 20 : Good - 4 nodes out of which one is easy and provides mana while the others require sprites to crack early.

Note that some nodes might be actually towers, reducing (or improving if the other side has nice targets) the overall performance, so it's even more random.

Total results : 7 good maps (35%), 11 acceptable maps (55%) and only two fails which can be salvaged with luck.
I think this is a huge step in the right direction and almost what I want. Low chance of economic loss, almost every map is guaranteed to at least recover your investment - however you're still wide open for early attacks due to not summoning combat capable units, and only one third of the maps generate enough advantage to be actually worth the risk.
However, if I add "invisible" benefits such as found spells, neutrals, heroes, books and retorts, it might be enough to be worth playing now.
Ultimately it looks somewhat similar to how it used to be with the original algorithm, except the big 2k+ value targets are gone - we had only of those one out of 60 maps.

Edit : Uploaded this version as CasterEXP6B.zip

[Seravy]

As a final test before the release, I've generated maps and looked at them manually.
While this is a lot more subjective and doesn't tell me the exact treasure or number of monsters, it also means I see neutral cities, direction and the distance of targets from enemy capitals, so overall it's still closer to how the map really plays out.

I was fairly forgiving on ratings - if the map had at least one potential early node and a few other targets, I rated it good. If it had good nodes but far, or no nodes but enough things to at least make some money, I rated it acceptable.


3+ early nodes earned an "Overpowered" rating.
I used these ratings even if the targets in question contained monsters that are easy without sprites, so this doesn't mean "good" maps are significantly better with sprites than other tactics - it just means the sprites tactic works well.


All the maps are fair size and power on arcanus.

Code:

1. ACC
2. GOOD
3. FAIL
4. GOOD
5. GOOD
6. GOOD
7. ACC
8. GOOD
9. ACC
10. ACC
11. FAIL
12. FAIL
13. ACC/FAIL
14. ACC
15. OVER
16. GOOD
17. FAIL/GOOD (targets are far or at risky places)
18. FAIL/GOOD (all targets near enemy capital)
19. ACC
20. ACC

1 Overpowered map (5%)
6 Good maps (30%)
7 Acceptabe maps (35%)
3 Fail maps (15%)
and 2 questionable maps.

Considering these ratings mean less advantage than the same categories did in my previous posts, I'm not entirely satisfied with the results.
At this point I see only one way to really improve it - Raise Air Elemental value to 301, disabling it in "easy" places. Honestly, we might want to do that anyway, as invisible (not reported!) strong secondary monsters are a nasty thing, and Air Elementals are the most painful monster to fight for human players (aside from colossus I guess) - as well as being the easiest for the AI.
Doing so requires raising Nagas or Phantom Beasts as well, otherwise the budget of 1171-1500 is impossible to generate. (9*130=1170 and can't have more than 9 monsters)

[Seravy]

Well, disabling Air Elementals and redoing the test...

1. GOOD/OVER (4 nodes but 2 near enemy capital)
2. GOOD/OVER (same, many good nodes but half are near enemies)
3. ACC
4. GOOD
5. ACC
6. OVER
7. OVER
8. OVER
...ok this is not going to work. Too many easy sorcery nodes now.

I'll try Air Elementals with the same limitation as Chimeras (only if node budget>=1000)

[Nelphine]

Yeah, I've been finding a lot of nodes with 1-3 phantom beasts, and 3-6 air elementals.

Its too bad we don't have an illusionary monster spell, that would let us put sorcery versions of other realm monsters in. Especially death and life monsters since they're never in nodes.