[Spoilers] Commodore as Washington of the Mongols

[Ceiliazul]

Anyway, turn wasn't a biggie. Got a powerful, possibly game-winning Stack of Doom right here!
...
This is, I think, a totally legit attempt. Closest ever, I think.

Of course it's legit! But if you really want it to be a stack of doom, you have to rename them "Beiber", "Morsette", "Pickler", etc.

Can you see all the way to the North edge? Even though all NAPs are holding, it might be safer to put those Artists closer to the NW corner... and close borders with Gaspar so he can't scout out those pampered pop stars.

[oledavy]

Anyway, turn wasn't a biggie. Got a powerful, possibly game-winning Stack of Doom right here!

QFT Love that screenshot.

[Commodore]

Can you see all the way to the North edge? Even though all NAPs are holding, it might be safer to put those Artists closer to the NW corner... and close borders with Gaspar so he can't scout out those pampered pop stars.

Eh, he's got to be able to keep track of all the GPs I've birthed, within one at least (as it was not obvious that I used the GE instead of a GA for the last golden age). The open borders are also giving each of the Big Three a boost in commerce, it's going to be close enough down to the wire that I want every little bit. Are Great People hurt by bombers?

In any case, payment for those mercenaries has finally popped in Holy Rome.

[COLOR="Yellow"]Johannes Vermeer was born in my lands at the end of this turn. Should be gifted to you next turn. Churning out another GP at end of next turn with ~65% probability of being an Artist.

You'd better win now!

TT[/COLOR]

[Ceiliazul]

In any case, payment for those mercenaries has finally popped in Holy Rome.

TT to th rescue! You picked a good little brother in this game.

I dont think bombers can kill anything. As for keeping track, was more concerned about some commando raid hyjinks.

[Commodore]

Uh, so Houston, we might have a problem. The usual airship scout spotted a massing Mackoti fleet, which is all well and good, the enforced treaty against TT ends soon, right?

Um...so why north of Oxkintok? Facing north?



It would be closer to his objectives in Holy Rome if he went in via the stone lake, including being able to 1-turn Aachen from there assuming his transports were moving from south of the green X. On the other hand, these guys are two turns from Satyr...and there is another transport north of that stack that might have commando raiders. THANK YOU for asking that question, Ceil.

So, with the save I also sent this:

[COLOR="Sienna"]Save

Also, I noticed your big transport mass north of Oxkintok. I haven't told TT about it at all, of course, as per our agreement. I just noticed that the way they were facing, it looks like they are coming north from the city there, and so I was making sure there wasn't a misunderstanding somewhere. We're still under the NAP until after turn 165 and a 5-turn rolling NAP after that, right?

-Commodore[/COLOR]

My goodness I hope I'm being paranoid.

[Commodore]

Well, paranoia aside, still have time for the report:

Turn 157, progress to victory [SIZE="6"]~63%[/SIZE]



Massing the army continues, which is all kinds of fun. six of those longbows will get upgraded once the furball starts, too. This force would be pitiful in an offensive war, but with enough time to collect them it might be enough against Mack's attack to delay until turn 167...assuming no NAP bust.



Pushing out those last GPP will be fun, Naga isn't going to be worth much after this. I'm trying hard to get this in five turns, after that I think that's all she wrote for Naga's yield.



After that (again, assuming no Mackotian units ripping into my lands), Mermaid is going to take a chance on another Artist (the ninth). I could push Mermaid into getting a full pool first, but the extra artist points will definitely up the chances of it coming up artist.



Culture pushes are almost relaxing against the AIs, calmly microing away as the points pile up. MP culture win is an insane Hail Mary, as even with the long NAPs I'm going to be racing right up to the wire. I'm trying to make it here in Manticore to 11 turns +2 GAs, for example. I'll manage it only by crazy staving at the end.



Meanwhile, in the wider world...yep, we'd have been screwed. Crazy as this is, I still think it's a better chance than trying to compete with Mack's insane lead. I thought we banned the CR? Bah, apparently not explicitly.



Meh. Here's the cavalry! The thing is if we get hit on turn 165, it takes a couple turns for the SoD to advance, and that's when the win has to take place. I just have to be able to kill 2-movers ahead of the swarm.



I'm going to be a mite bit short. I did grab Mackoti in chat, so the log is incoming...

[Commodore]

Well, that's a pisser. I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, as much of a stickler as Mackoti is...

Mackoti: hi

Commodore: Hello

Mackoti: well about the nap
3:15 PM
you didnt respected all

you setled a city in my area

Commodore: Your area?
3:16 PM
Mackoti: well i raze a city nd next turn you build another there

Commodore: Ah, yes, I said I would.

Mackoti: dont htink so

Commodore: That's what I said, Reach would have been crushed culturally, so you said you'd just raze.

Mackoti: and that was all
3:17 PM
i asked lurkers

about that if its apropriate to break a nap over that

and mostly are against

Commodore: Yeah, why didn't you say something? This was a dozen turns ago?

Mackoti: so i am still thinking what to do...

well
3:18 PM
because i wanted you dont know

after that i felt its not right

after i said i made a mistake

with nap

but you made

your own mistake
3:19 PM
dont know

Lewwyn said for sur its not a fair play move

so i dontk know
3:20 PM
i will have at leats 3 turns to syop the launc?

stop

the

Commodore: Launch?

Mackoti: culture victory

sorry
3:21 PM
if wasnt for that city i would just let you to do your thing

Commodore: Probably? It's one of those RNG things.

I have mixed pools all over.

Mackoti: I even played 2 turns withou carring

till i saw your city
3:22 PM
there

Commodore: Wish you'd have let me know, it'd have been no big deal to raze it.

Mackoti: well you see that its the point

i need a lame excuse to backstab you
3:23 PM
that city worth nothing

i know
3:25 PM
So the point is for me you know before Nap you will go for a cultural victory?

Commodore: Huh?
3:26 PM
Mackoti: before we agreed about Nap

Commodore: It was always a possibility.
3:27 PM
Mackoti: i see

Commodore: Kicked into high gear post-NAP

Mackoti: then i made a mistake

but you made one too

Commodore: For giving you a pretext?

Mackoti: yup
3:28 PM
Commodore: Huh, well, at least you admit it's a pretext.

Mackoti: i admit
3:29 PM
Commodore: If you break NAP, all forces stream to my core, I tell Gaspar to come in unopposed.

Mackoti: i was thinking to that reaction
3:30 PM
Commodore: If the big threes go down from a NAP break, I think I'll also send the artists + missionaries Gaspar's way to give him a better chance.

If you don't break NAP, I'll work to oppose Gaspar capturing my core too.
3:31 PM
Mackoti: the think its i have enough to take even your cities whch let free for gaspar
3:32 PM
and i dont think gaspar wants to fight me

i have bobers

bombers
3:33 PM
Commodore: Well, it's your choice. You're in mostly no-talking games elsewhere, so it probably won't hurt you to have people know you break NAPs if it looks like your opponent is winning in them.
3:34 PM
Mackoti: thats true ,but winning its not that important for me
3:35 PM
Just a curiosity why did you setled that city?
3:37 PM
Commodore: Heh, it's almost silly, TT managed to force the site from me early game, I wanted to settle it in the end.

Beyond that it's nothing much, yields decent production but nothing amazing.
8 minutes
3:46 PM
Commodore: I'll rid you of the pretext if you'd like.

Mackoti: he he
5 minutes
3:51 PM
Mackoti: well i make a compromise i will came just in turn 162, 3 turns short the nap because of that city
3:52 PM
and you'll have time to prepare
3:53 PM
Commodore: Ah, so the compromise is you'll only break the NAP a little, but still enough so that you aren't worried about losing.
7 minutes
4:00 PM
Commodore: Honestly, I think you'd still win if you attack on Turn 165.
4:01 PM
You can see the rates of culture, and the GAs are hard to make after this many GP

Mackoti: well i saw tt

got one
4:02 PM
and you said he owns you some great people

Commodore: Heh, that's even counting his payment.
4:03 PM
Two get legendary no problem, but the last is hard.

Mackoti: and if i remember how you stoped my tt campaign i became very angry

you gived units to flank mine
4:04 PM
and top defenders

hmmmm
4:05 PM
Commodore: We all try to win.

Well, expect for Gaspar, who has apparently given up a long time ago.
4:06 PM
Mackoti: he still hopes

has the best economy right now

Commodore: Heh, except for MFG

Mackoti: well

....
4:08 PM
in 10 turns you win
4:09 PM
Commodore: Turn 170 is the current projection.
4:10 PM
I'm trying to bring that down.

Should have chosen a better third site, but the infra was already there from fighting TT's culture
4:11 PM
Mackoti: perhaps you still have one very close...
4:12 PM
Commodore: Like I said, 170 is the current projection, I'm going to be trying to bring it down of course.
4:13 PM
If it's just about winning, of course your lowest-risk move is to break NAP and attack me now.

Mackoti: well i ahve till turn 169

if you mange to get 1 turn faster will be 168
4:14 PM
Commodore: I'll get rid of the excuse, however.
4:15 PM
Mackoti: what you will do with it?

thats the question

Commodore: Raze it

Mackoti: you cant raze your own city
4:17 PM
Commodore: Oh, but TT could.
14 minutes
4:31 PM
Commodore: So, what's it going to be? I'm willing to trash my foreign trade routes to get rid of the excuse.

Mackoti: i will sleep on it

Unwise to give him an excuse, but at least he admits it is an excuse. Man wants to win, I know. C'mon, I'm coming up short now as it is, a tight battle for the win would be thrilling. Three to five turns, maybe, with luck and skill, I could stop the Mayan tanks and delay the Chinese marines. He hits in two turns? Hah, yeah right, I'm not able to hold out 8 to 11.

Lurkers, am I being unreasonable? Assuming what he's saying is the whole story, naturally, if there is something odd going on in the west that's perhaps a different story. I'm already going to make a general policy suggestion: Don't NAP Mackoti, and if you do, expect a pretext to be found to break it if you look like a threat to win.

[Catwalk]

I think there are two issues here.
1) Did your city warrant a NAP breach? IMO not at all, especially since he didn't notify you about it when you settled it. If the city itself was a problem, he could have brought it up and you could have allowed it to be razed.
2) Are NAPs valid when a player is about to win? This one seems to divide the waters. I'm of the opinion that NAPs should not be broken. If you signed a bad one, shame on you.

What are your chances of winning if only Gaspar fights you?

[fluffyflyingpig]

Gotta give him some credit, he knows its a pretext and freely admits it. This game is fun to watch again. Good luck!

[yuris125]

I definitely don't see that city as a valid reason to break a NAP. And I believe NAPs shouldn't be broken under any circumstances, as well as other deals. But then, maybe I'm paying too much attention to being honourable :neenernee