American Politics Discussion Thread

[Charr Babies]

Pleas explain your awesome rating system so that I may borrow it when I feel like talking out of my a$$. 

You definitely don't need any help there .

Darrell

AWESOME rating system, AWESOME comeback    

[Mjmd]

We will never know how much the pressure Biden admin put on Israel and humanitarian aid provided affected things. IE it might not be as bad as it could have been, but we will never know. That being said, it is still an F.

However, as Trump as said he would "let Israel finish the job" and that "Biden has failed Israel" its about as sure as alternate history can get that he wouldn't have been better, but again, will never know.

[Charr Babies]

We will never know how much the pressure Biden admin put on Israel and humanitarian aid provided affected things. IE it might not be as bad as it could have been, but we will never know. That being said, it is still an F.

However, as Trump as said he would "let Israel finish the job" and that "Biden has failed Israel" its about as sure as alternate history can get that he wouldn't have been better, but again, will never know.

That's a fair enough statement I can accept unless I want to argue the finer points (not today). 
There are words and there are actions, the fact is we are the supplier/enabler.
Trump shoots his mouth off like diarrhea, he can only be prosecuted for thought crimes if that's what we do nowadays. Since we take his verbal diarrhea as a lunatic we cannot use his own words against him, until he does. (and that, unfortunately, includes ending the Ukraine conflict in 24 hours. We just have to wait and see)

[Mjmd]

In some ways we are lucky its Trump. Like imagine if it wasn't as obvious. Imagine if it was a person who wasn't stupid enough to go out and just say "vote this time, you won't have to vote in four years it will all be fixed. You won't have to vote anymore." I actually couldn't believe it. I actually went and watched his speech because I was positive it was some AI fake.

[greenline]

I went and watched the part of the speech that people are quoting now. "We'll have it fixed so good in four years you won't have to vote" sounds like a typical Trump brag that he delivers what people want excessively. That America will be so much better with a second Trump term everyone can go home. This is an exaggeration of course, but it hovers closer to the truth, because the years of the Trump administration as a whole were better in all metrics that count compared to the Biden administration.

Btw, even the Harris campaign has given up on the constant messaging of democracy being in peril. The people giving millions of dollars to her because they want to win realize it's better messaging with voters to try and make Harris seem like a youthful, fun, relatable personality instead of never shutting up about some non-event that happened four years ago.

[Mjmd]

Or hear me out. He saying what he means. It's either really stupid brag or really stupid and telling us exactly what he will do.

Trump took over an already growing economy and then gave it unpaid for tax cuts and pressured the fed to keep rates down. You the exact opposite of what good economic theory is. He was also the most corrupt president in history and our he was constantly antagonizing our allies. I do not miss the foreign policy via tweet.

By non event you mean failed coup. Never make the unacceptable acceptable.

[Mjmd]

BTW I haven't' seen this online, but I assume everyone just understands the irony.

Republicans are relying on Kamala Harris the person they are most likely directly voting against certifying the election. The thing Trump was trying to get Pence to overturn, the 1 thing Trump asked him to do he didn't, and the reason he is no longer on Trumps ticket. You are relying on Harris the person you are voting against to have a higher moral standard than the person you are voting for.

That is why it is very much NOT a non event. That is the madness of our system. That is why it is a line that should not be crossed. We rely every 4 years on the side that thinks the other side is wrong and stupid to just let the transfer of power happen. Republicans are relying on something they don't believe in. They are relying on Democrats to do the right thing, when all the Republicans that did the right thing last election have been kicked from their own party. That is why this isn't a normal election.

[Gavagai]

BTW I haven't' seen this online, but I assume everyone just understands the irony.

Republicans are relying on Kamala Harris the person they are most likely directly voting against certifying the election. The thing Trump was trying to get Pence to overturn, the 1 thing Trump asked him to do he didn't, and the reason he is no longer on Trumps ticket. You are relying on Harris the person you are voting against to have a higher moral standard than the person you are voting for.

That is why it is very much NOT a non event. That is the madness of our system. That is why it is a line that should not be crossed. We rely every 4 years on the side that thinks the other side is wrong and stupid to just let the transfer of power happen. Republicans are relying on something they don't believe in. They are relying on Democrats to do the right thing, when all the Republicans that did the right thing last election have been kicked from their own party. That is why this isn't a normal election.

Mjmd, this is a demagogic take. Republicans (some of them) wanted Pence to refuse to certify Biden because they believed that Trump won the election, not because they expected him to certify Trump irrespective of what the results of the elections were. In the same way they now expect Harris to certify the actual winner of the elections whom they expect to be Trump once again. In this, they are no different from Democrats who believed Pence should have certified Biden because they believed Biden won the elections. The disagreement between Republicans and Democrats here lies not in moral standards but in the way they perceive facts. You can say that Republicans are wrong to see facts in this way, you can even say that it is very stupid of them to see facts in this way. But you have no grounds to claim that they have different moral expectations from Pence and Harris respectively.

[Mjmd]

There is only one set of facts, but people often ignore those if they don't fit their world view. However, I take your point that they may only be seeing what they want to see and therefore don't see the irony. As I've stated before its always easy to justify taking power; each sides sees things their way. Its not human nature to just give over power. So yes in our system we expect and rely on each side giving power, but we should understand that is very much NOT human nature or most of history shows us is normal to happen. That is very much why we should double and triple check logic instead of emotion or relying on what A side is saying when that system gets attacked instead of just assuming because "your side is doing it its ok".

I have logically argued before that their current moral standards are below the level of Andrew Jackson. IE known example of election being stolen (legally but still in his, mine, many other opinions stolen), but he didn't try to overturn. IE even if they do ignore the actual facts and believe it was stolen, it still isn't the correct thing to overturn.

[Gavagai]

You assume here that the certification procedure is a pure formality, not a place for a substantive decision where senators need to determine whether what they certify is legit. This I am not sure is a tenable view, i. e. if they receive two conflicting lists of delegates from the same state, it is certainly up to them to decide which one to choose. Also they, I think, have a right to throw away a list of delegates which is clearly not real, e. g. consists of made-up people. In any case, it is a non-trivial question of constitutional law - what exactly the certification procedure represents. I do not see how a disagreement on this issue says anything about one's morality.