RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Hatshepsut / India

[regoarrarr]

My moves

Email to Shady

You'll have noticed that I have opted to show good faith and have removed my units from your hill. I will likely be moving them back towards my cities shortly. It would be nice if you could also refrain from occupying threatening / border positions.

Given the events of the past few moves, I will understand (though be disappointed) if you choose to do so.

Email to ZPV

I have moved my units off the hill. WIth all the units he had in The Castle, there was no way I was going to attack in there, and even though it was unlikely he would attack me, I saw no point in continuing to pay unit supply for all those units.

If you want to regroup and plan another attack, I'm open to it, but with a potential Zulu war on my northern front, I am not sure what units I can spare.

I am sending my units to the north. I don't have time this evening, but hopefully shortly I can share my tactical plans.

[regoarrarr]

A few quick diplomatic notes. I won't paste in the chats and emails about the Krill / Lin buildup since I see they have posted and I assume that they are in their threads.

Email from shady, sent to ZPV and forwarded to me

First of all, that Charismatic-Numid combination is lethal. Free flanking + cheap promotions = far seeing fast moving dudes that can attack and retreat. If you had them out earlier, pre-elephants they would have stormed over anyone! I must try that combo in a single-player game to see how it works. I was very lucky that I had a good few elephants just in time to fight them off.

TBH, Rego did not bring all that much to the fight and not enough of my units were tied up in The Castle. He didn't even spill any blood apart from sniping the 2 spears (off me and dsp). I would have rather inflicted some damage on his units than yours since he was the one who sneak-attacked me, whereas you are obviously perfectly justified to attack me so I can hardly hold it against you.

Anyway, Rego's elephants have retreated and he's trying to talk peace - though I assume he's told you this already. Are you planning on continuing this war?

ZPV asked my thoughts, and this was my reply to him (ZPV)

Well a couple of thoughts.

a) He is correct that I did not bring much to the fight. I wasn't planning on doing much military and what I sent to that hill were just units that I chop / whipped out after they razed your cities. Plus, all of my other cities are doing units to get sent up to the north to defend against an impending attack by Imhotep.

b) He seems bitter towards me and seems to be trying to drive a wedge between us. Perhaps he is trying to resurrect the talks you mentioned earlier where he tried to initiate an alliance against me. I hope that you don't listen to that.

c) I wonder if losing those 2 workers were the difference in making this attack work. If we could have gone at T90ish when we first hoped to do it, this would have been lethal. But oh well...

d) I think that I need to take peace, but I'm worried about him continuing to build up and attack me once peace is signed and my units are all in the north. What kind of offensive and/or defensive military are you planning on keeping in the area?

Sorry I missed you earlier - I was in a meeting but am back now.

[regoarrarr]

Email from shadyforce directly

I have noticed the units in danger of being killed have retreated and the warrior who posed no threat has gone off wandering. I have also noticed no acceptance of a peace deal in my inbox and I have also noticed your troublesome Axe is still near my city. I don't know what you are showing good faith towards. If you wanted to protect the safety of your units and your borders, you could have just signed the peace deal.

So as far as I'm concerned:
- We are still at war. For all I know you are just mobilizing to attack a different location or with reinforcements.
- Your Axe near The lighthouse has not retreated, is still in a very threatening position and what's more guards ZPV's Numid. It will probably be killed unless it gets out of there asap.

And what's more, even if I were satisfied with some sort of phony war arrangement:
- I am still at war with ZPV and should I need to occupy border positions in order to defend against or flank his units, then I will do so.
- I intend to chop and mine those hills around The Castle and I will need units to guard the workers.

My reply

Hello there!

- I am still at war with ZPV and should I need to occupy border positions in order to defend against or flank his units, then I will do so.
- I intend to chop and mine those hills around The Castle and I will need units to guard the workers.

Of course. And I did not mean to imply that you could not or should not. But obviously there is a difference between a defensive worker guarding force and a looming invasion force.

As for Henry the axe, I did not want to move him without talking to ZPV and he was already in bed when I was playing last night I still haven't gotten a hold of ZPV as I've been in meetings this morning, but it's likely that Henry will be heading home when I finish the turn later today.

As for the peace deal, I guess my main concern is that, by itself, it doesn't really buy us much. It prevents neither of us from continuing to mobilize towards war with the end of declaring in 10 turns. Maybe I'm just being silly. I had a hard time writing this paragraph so maybe it's more complicated and unfortunately I'm out of time right now - maybe we can chat later on today and we can figure it out.

Not sure what my problem is. One thing is that I don't need a peace deal ending on T117 (10 turns from now), the turn before Imhotep's deal runs out on T118. But I'm not sure how best to mention that.

[regoarrarr]

Chat with ZPV

(11:56) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: are you there?
(11:56) me: hi
(11:56) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: hi
(11:56) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: wrt shadyforce, I'm thinking of keeping marauding worker-steal threats around
(11:57) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: it's too far away for me to send slow units in dribs and drabs, but I can try to build up a SoD once I have copper hooked up
(11:57) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: when do you expect an attack from Imho?
(11:57) me: our nap cool down ends t118
(11:58) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I guess that would be the time. There is still some time for preparation, though. We will have the ability to build knights, and (soon after) pikes for top-line counter units
(11:58) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: but I'll do my best to support
(11:59) me: well, if i sign peace with shady, and feel like i can leave only a few units in the south
(11:59) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: what are your thoughts on peace with shady?
(11:59) me: i should have about 8 maces, 2 eles, a few cats, a longbow and some HAs vs. imhotep
(11:59) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: ok
(11:59) me: the one thing i'm worried about peace with shady is that 10t runs out right at the same point imhotep might be attacking
(12:01) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: yeah. I'm not that keen on signing peace myself, unless he pays me for it, but that does seem like convenient timing
(12:01) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: it would also allow for imhotep's stack to move though shady's land undetected
(12:01) me: i'm wondering if i should tell him about my concern with imhotep
(12:01) me: i'm sure he's got to know about it
(12:03) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I'm not altogether sure what you should say
(12:03) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: How long is your border with imhotep?
(12:03) me: maybe i should include a clause about no permiting 3rd party units to attack the other through their lands
(12:03) me: though that would stop you from using my lands to attack him
(12:04) me: it's 1 city wide (hopefully) and then a lake
(12:04) me: which i hope to have a trireme or 2 on
(12:04) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: it's a tough call
(12:05) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I feel safer having my scout units in his land, but all they're showing me right now are elephants
(12:06) me: right
(12:06) me: what beats eles?
(12:06) me: maces?
(12:06) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: pikes
(12:06) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: more eles
(12:06) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: cats+anything
(12:07) me: are you going for engineering or guilds?
(12:07) me: what we really need are soem of broker's landsknechts
(12:07) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I started guilds. I think it was the wrong choice, but I've already sunk a fair number of beakers into it
(12:11) me: yeah i think engineering would have been better
(12:12) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I'll check how many beakers I have invested - I think it's about a turn's worth. I could switch to eng, do guilds after, and you could go for something else after theo
(12:15) me: yeah
(12:15) me: i think i'm going to want / need to save gold for awhile
(12:15) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: ok
(12:15) me: in case i need to do any axe->mace or archer->xbow upgrades
(12:15) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: ok
(12:15) me: so do you plan on using my lands to harass shady?
(12:16) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: yeah
(12:16) me: ok well then i will keep that out of talks
(12:16) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: ok
(12:16) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I offered for him to talk to me, but nothing more than that
(12:16) me: though then i hope you at least help defend thigns if he attacks me
(12:17) me: fairfield and green twp will build their last northern units within the next 2-3 turns
(12:17) me: anything else built after that won't make it to the front by t118
(12:17) me: so they can build a few units for the south
(12:17) me: but obviously there are lots of other things that need building
(12:19) me: so one odd thought that i had the other day
(12:19) me: was some sort of 3way alliance between you, me and shady
(12:19) me: seems like it would have some advantages as it protects one front for each of us
(12:19) me: plus if there was ever a backstab, the other 2 people could counter it
(12:19) me: (or you and i could take him out when we felt like it)
(12:20) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: hmm. How would we go about it? I presume this is after the G5 has broken up?
(12:20) me: yeah i don't know
(12:20) me: it just came to me as an idea
(12:20) me: didn't really think it through much
(12:20) me: as for the g5, i have been feeling very pessimistic lately about its survival
(12:20) me: maybe that's too much chatting with krill
(12:20) me: who loves to play mindgames...
(12:20) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: why? Krill bleeding the other 3 dry?
(12:21) me: well just generically 6 v 5
(12:21) me: and 2-3 of ours are tied up with 1 (krill)
(12:22) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: just checked- I have 196/1500 beakers in Guilds - I'll switch immediately
(12:22) me: ok
(12:25) me: 3t for me to theo
(12:25) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: perhaps you can knock off lit?]
(12:25) me: yeah
(12:25) me: maybe
(12:31) me: you people who don't respond to emails are annoying
(12:31) me: (referring to imhotep currently)
(12:31) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: lol
(12:34) me: what's your eta on engineering?
(12:34) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: curently 3000AD - I'll tell you after I come out of revolt
(12:34) me: lol
(12:36) me: so where do you see the G5 heading in the next few turns?
(12:37) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: as long as they keep feeding us gold, I'm happy
(12:37) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: but if they really can't keep up, then we need to consider our options
(12:43) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: because really, who else can keep up with us in tech? M-h can, but we need some "muscle" to go with it
(12:43) me: right
(12:43) me: who would be ideal?
(12:43) me: i'm surprised m-h is teching so well with so few citeis
(12:43) me: though i guess he does have the mids and GL
(12:43) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: pyramids+GreatLib does wonders
(12:45) me: the perfect compliments would be ruff and imhotep
(12:45) me: for the muscle
(12:45) me: and plus, the 3 of you could do all the civving, and i'll answer all your emails!!
(12:45) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: lol the aggressive dudes
(12:45) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: haha
(12:45) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: will you write our spoiler threads too?
(12:46) me: sure
(12:46) me: i bet the lurkers know more about your guys civs from my threads than from yours
(12:46) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: well, I've been posting big overviews from time to time - but I haven't done one about the war yet
(12:46) me: in my email to imhotep, i suggested that he use his units to attack shady off of my galleys
(12:47) me: which i think is a fantatsic idea
(12:47) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: lol
(12:47) me: doesn't it seem like a good one?
(12:47) me: certainly unexpected
(12:49) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I didn't mean that - just it seems funny comparing with worrying about nap with imhotep running out
(12:50) me: well i was trying to give him some other options
(12:50) me: i mean i can undersatnd having all these attacking units
(12:50) me: and wanting something to do with them
(12:50) me: i was thinking today too that this game is not conducive to war
(12:50) me: because of how fast the tech pace is
(12:50) me: by the time he can get his praets to me, i'll have maces
(12:51) me: by the time he can have knights, i'll have pikes, etc
(12:51) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: yeah - the thing to do is whip like crazy once you have 10 cities like krill has - then the opponent has to do the same, decimating research pace
(12:51) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: because 10 maces don't stop 50 praets
(12:52) me: which is exactly what i'm worried about
(12:52) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: so krill is going to turn up with a real SoD
(12:52) me: yeah his power graph is insane
(12:52) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: the only question is where
(12:53) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: it's near vertical?
(12:53) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I don't have it
(12:53) me: pretty close
(12:53) me: he has over 300K soldiers
(12:53) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: lol
(12:53) me: #1 by a healthy amount
(12:53) me: i think i have 212 and i'm 3rd
(12:53) me: something like that
(12:54) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: well, I g2g
(12:54) me: yeah me too
(12:54) ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: I'll talk to you later
(12:54) me: ok

A bit of meta talk there about what he and I should do if the Lins and sunrise fall apart

[regoarrarr]

Okay - I managed to figure out the flying camera. If anyone knows how to turn off the signs, I'd be happy to do that - I couldn't figure it out and they clutter up the pic.



So here's the empire, looking mostly southish to north.

The brown lines are (more or less) my road network, culminating in the north with the brown circle, which will be my front city vs. Imhotep. The final roads towards the front city are being constructed right now, and the settler is 3S of the brown dot. Imhotep's capital is 2S of the sign that says Imhotep, in the top right of the picture. As far as I can tell, he has no cities (maybe 1?) towards me from his capital. The gifted Praets were in Thangorodrim a few turns ago.

So, forces that are heading up there, from south to north, along with the turn they will make it to brown dot (usually in parentheses)

Red dot - Mace that was whipped this turn in Fairfield. This will take 11 turns to get there, so it will arrive on T118, which is (I guess), the magic hour. No additional slow movers from Fairfield will make it up there in time.

Yellow dot - 2 Elephants, a spear and a sword on the move (T116) and a mace that will complete naturally in Green Twp in 2 turns (T117).

Green dot - mace that was whipped this turn in Whitewater (T116)

Lt. Purple dot - mace whipped this turn in Norwood (T113) and another mace whipped after that (T116), with possibly a 3rd unit after that with a chop (trireme / cat?)

Orange dot - mace completing in the capital (T115) and another mace after that, built T112 (arrival T118)

Dark Blue dot - A longbowman (2 promos available) and a catapult. Also a cat to be whipped in Harrison in a few turns.

I forgot to dot it, but at Terrace Park my easternmost city, there is an elephant and archer on the move and a mace to be whipped in a few turns.

Regular blue dot - 2 axes.

So by T118, we should have
8 maces
3 elephants
1 spear
1 longbow
2 catapults
1 sword
1 archer

That's a lot but who knows what kind of insane army Imhotep might be bringing. I do plan on sending a few more units up there trickling with arrival times after T118 in case I have to deal with impis or anyone trying to bypass the front.

But... I have some barb problems.

There is a barb axe near regular blue dot that will die if it attacks either of my 2 axes in the area, but will delay their march to the new city if he stays in the forest and could delay the road that is heading that way.

But more importantly, my exploring eastern warrior (Charlie) ended his turn next to a barb axe squatting on the copper. You can almost see him 1N of the peak tile behind the UI in the top right. If the axe attacks, he will almost certainly die, and I lose my Imhotep sentry (not to mention my perfect 22/22 combat record in this game )

So if that happens, I will likely promote one of my 2 axes to Woody 2 and use him.

In other empire news, Blue Ash in the west is preparing a settler for Indian Hill which will choke off my west and allow passageway to another lake.

[regoarrarr]

WAR!

Email from Dreylin

Gents,

As we expected, a border dispute has flared in the Lin/Inca area and Lin has declared War and landed the first (sucker) punch. An Incan Chariot poised to take out one of our roads in neutral territory was defeated by a Lin Vulture. It's on!

Here's what I just sent Krill:

Krill / Memphus,

Despite your generous offer of a 100t NAP, we have decided that we cannot accept terms that involve ceding so much territory to your empire. We have also taken the preemptive step of declaring War, knowing full-well that it was coming anyway.

I hope that you do not feel that I led you on in any way during our negotiations, I really was attempting to reach an agreement and it was a close decision on our part whether or not to accept your offer.

I hope that once our Generals have had their fun, that we can return to the negotiating table once again.

Regards,

Dreylin & Kalin of the League.


Dreylin.

[regoarrarr]

Email sent to Imhotep. He has a lookout Impi right near where I was going to plant my forward city. 1 tile S of the peak SW of the brown dot in the pic above. I promoted my archer guarding the settler to shock, and ran a world builder test and a C2-Shock Impi has only a 23.7% chance of defeating a Shock Archer in a forest, so I think it should be okay. I also promoted my axe to Woody 2 and moved him and an elephant 1 tile away so in the worst case I should be able to whack the Impi.

Imhotep,

Sigh.....

I guess I'm a bit confused as to what our relationship is in this game, and how you view interactions between our 2 countries. But here is the evidence that I've noted so far

* You declined to renew our NAP, instead allowing it to reach the end of its cool down period on T118 (upcoming!)
* You have opted to not trade techs with me, nor shown interest in techs that I have offered to you
* You have chosen not to reply to many of my most recent emails
* You have made great use of the whip over the past few turns
* Your power graph has shown you haven't been whipping say, monasteries and markets?
* Ruff has apparently gifted you several units, including at least a few Praetorians

So... taken on their own, these things could all mean several things. But taken all together?

Now, your email silence for instance. You strike me as more of a quiet guy, not emailing much. You never emailed much, even in the earlier game. So that could explain that. It has also crossed my mind that maybe it is in your (or some of your friends / allies) best interests to keep me focused on military.

So... what's the deal?

Your forward Impi will have likely seen my settler / archer pair. It had been my intention, given the lack of response from you, to send him on to found a front city to ward off any attack you might send from that direction. It would be my PREFERENCE to send him in a completely different direction, contingent on some sort of understanding with you.

It would naturally be my preference that you do not attack my archer / settler, though if I did my worldbuilder test right, you only have about a 23% chance, which is probably not one you would take. And in any case, I know (think? hope?) that you would not go back on your word and attack before T118 anyways.

So what do we do now? I restate that I am open to just about anything. I don't know what Krill has told you about the nature of my arrangement with ZPV, sunrise, broker and the Lins. I do know from experience that he loves playing mindgames. It started out as a 5-way trade and has turned into more mostly because we have been frozen out by the rest of you. I know now that forming a 5 person deal in an 11 person game was pretty stupid, but hey, what can I do now? Nobody in the NUTA wants to talk to me much, and so, I'm stuck where I am. This upcoming Krill / Lin war should be interesting I suppose.

Anyway, I hope to hear from you soon

[regoarrarr]

Email from M-h

Hi regoarrarr,
sorry for not being in touch earlier.
It looks like things are heating up around the world.
We would like to use this message to re-confirm our peaceful nature towards your great civ.
Past dealings (the HG deal) went very smoothly, we feel, and we are looking forward to future cooperation between our civs.
While it seems clear that both our civs have their tech obligations to fulfil in the near future, we believe this will not necessarily be the case until the end of times.
The current hostilities should not prevent the more peaceful civs from establishing closer links.
To that effect we would like to offer Open Borders (offered in game).
What are your thoughts about that?
We feel that both our civs are sufficiently far away from each other to pose no direct threat.

Regards
mh & Kodii

My reply

This wouldn't have anything to do with your warrior Odysseus not wanting to be blocked in his journey to the east, would it? ;-). Fear not, he has a safe passage around my borders. I have opened borders with you, and hope that this is the start of a good relationship - as you point out, we have much to gain from establishing future links.

I would prefer it if you did not enter my borders with your warrior at this time. With the state of the world as it is, until I know more about the standings of the world and where you stand, specifically, I can't risk you selling any military intel to my enemies (whoever they may be). I hope that is okay with you.

So, speaking of the current state of the world, yes, it sure does appear to be heating up. I am very much in favor of working out a deal with you guys since as you mentioned, we are quite far away and no real threat militarily. I don't know what you have been told or believe about the group that you guys call the UTA. Hopefully Krill is not your main source of information, as I know from personal experience he loves to play the mind games. It started out as an agreement to trade the first 5 techs. It has really only morphed into anything more due to the fact that everyone else decided they would form an alliance and so now I kind of feel frozen out and forced to deal with the only civs that will actually talk to me!!

I hope that we can turn this around. As for techs, I was assuming that you were heading towards Music. I, myself am researching Theology and will finish shortly. I know that's a tech that you already have, but I do have Civil Service of course. What are your thoughts on that?

[regoarrarr]

Email from shadyforce

No I am definitely interested. I'm not trying to 'talk alliance while really just stringing you along'. As far as I'm concerned, the obstacle to our cooperation is the state of the game rather than my willingness to cooperate. I wish I could think you were the same but your actions speak otherwise. You excluded me from the initial round of tech deals and thus left me behind technologically and thus unable to offer much for the next few rounds. And during my first war, you take my opponent's side even though I have never attacked you or done anything to you and there was no threat to you. But maybe you feel end-played into those actions as well. I don't know.

But that's the way the game goes and I always keep my options open.

I would be interested in trading you Drama. As I mentioned before, I'll have CS soon enough. If you feel like taking a chance to disclose your next research, we could arrange something? Or perhaps we could work out a price for it. Gold is always good but I would also be interested in a few fast workers. I'm a little short of those.

I would also be interested in some sort of military alliance in the near future. ZPV is the obvious target since he's already at war with me he is near both of us. Imhotep is another possibility if the ZPV threat goes away and the overall game dynamic shakes up a bit. But perhaps you are hoping to play the builder game. But I thought I'd mention it as an option regardless.

No reply from Imhotep

[regoarrarr]

Did a brief analysis of Imhotep's power. I'm not in the game right now. I believe he's got something like 230K.

Pop - 5 cities. Angband is size 6, so I'm going to assume about 18 pop points, 9K

Tech -
Sailing, AH, Mining, Hunting - 8K
Wheel, Alpha, MC, Construction - 16K
Math, Archery - 12K
BW - 8K
HBR, IW - 20K

Total from tech - 64K

Buildings
Probably 4 Ikhandas - 12K

Garrison units - assume mostly warriors - 10K

Total so far no army - 9 + 64 + 12 + 10 = 95K

Total in the army - 135K (yikes!)

Cats are 5K
Impis are 4K
Elephants and Praets are 8K

I believe he has 4-5 Praets, let's say 5, so 95K left. He's got to have at least 5 Impis or so.

So some things he could have:
5 Praets, 5 Impis, 5 Elephants, 7 cats
5 Praets, 5 Impis, 8 Elephants, 2 cats
5 Praets, 5 Impis, 2 Elephants, 12 cats

As a reminder, I have estimated I will have
8 maces, 3 elephants, 1 spear, 1 longbow, 2 catapults, 1 sword, 1 archer and 2 axes. (129K soldier count and 17 non-cat units)

with maybe a few HAs and a couple of other units. That makes me feel a bit better, but doesn't account for anything he'll be building between now and then (though obviously, some of those units will also be too late to reach the front).

For reference, I read the the definitive article on how Flanking works and I'm not sure that will be useful given my relatively limited amount of HAs.

Seems that if he's cat heavy (12 cats), I should be able to successfully attack out and kill almost all of that. If he's cat light (2 cats), I can attack where it makes sense and let him attack my city, where it should all pretty much die. If he's in between (7 cats), then it could get dicey.

Any lurkers with MP / war experience would be welcome to give advice!!