[SPOILERS] - Tredje and Mardoc are Sheelba of the Clan of Embers

[Mardoc]

[COLOR="SandyBrown"]Hey Mardoc,

Thanks for your reply, and your honesty regarding the status of the war. I think you guys were lucky that Bob got bored like he did and threw all that stuff at you! Otherwise you could have been fighting for a very long time! Still, it appears that Bob's play is always to rely on Hyborem as a fall back and when he is summoned, the AI will likely fill the slot of the Balseraph.

Hyborem could be a real threat to everyone. A rush with his mobility champs and longbows would be pretty devastating. I am surprised bob didn't leave all those adepts alive to be turned into manes when you eventually would have killed them.

With regard to my trades with Bob - I will be cancelling them soon anyway - it seems that he wont have the resources to trade to me in the near future anyway. You are quite right that there isn't really any value in that to you now that the war appears to have been won. I will have a silk resource open for trade if you are interested?

I completely agree that the fact that we don't have a NAP after t140 doesn't mean that we will be at war. That is a situation that I will have to live with. You will definitely be keeping me "honest"

You raise an interesting option in a gpt gift for peace. You say that this is something that i might not be willing to enter into but to be perfectly honest, you are mistaken. Being the only financial leader in the game I was always going to shoot off in GNP once the damn Sheaim left me alone. Thus my GNP is there to be used and if a donation of gold per turn is what it takes for peace between us, then that is an asset I am willing to offer. What sort of numbers where you thinking? Granted, there would be a delay until I got Currency but it wouldn't be that long and I could gift a back payment to catch up.

Here is an offer I am willing throw out there to get the ball rolling:

I will pay you 15gpt for a 15t NAP from the time I research Currency (which I will immediately head to) = 225g.

Let me know what you think.[/COLOR]

So, thinking about this - this is his initial offer. We could probably push him higher, which would both slow him and boost us; our break-even research rate is about 50%, so if we can extort enough, we can turn everything he gives into more beakers, letting us reach up to Ritualists/Ogres faster. We have Serdoa out there as a possible alternate target, so the Sons wouldn't get bored (and getting swarmed under by an alliance of the three remainders is always the most pressing threat, I think). And if we're careful to keep SL's NAP expiring at a different time than Iskender's, that would keep our rear mostly secure while we continue to expand eastward.

On the other hand, he's clearly nervous, but only nervous enough for a 15 turn NAP request. That means he's vulnerable now, but expects something significant to happen to help him soon. This might even be an alliance with Iskender, for all we know, due to kick in when Iskender's NAP with us expires at EOT 150. Or, well, it might be that 15 turns is enough for SL to research to something significant - Blinding Light + Blasting workshops, say.

At the moment, my inclination is to write him back and suggest 50 gold/turn for a 20-30 turn NAP. That would definitely give him time, true, but it would also give us time to absorb the Sheaim, leave him NAP-staggered with Iskender, and give us time and cash to get to something militarily useful that's not the Sons. If we add in a well-timed Golden Age, to fall in the era where Rantine's grabbed us some cities, the Balseraph captures are out of revolt, that would let us put up markets/elder councils/courthouses and Warrens/Training Yards in enough spots to have a nasty conventional force.

But, well, I can definitely see the argument for instead aiming to hit him now while he's vulnerable, get our gold from razing his cities instead, and doing it all while we're protected from *Iskender* by NAP instead.

Gaspar, I hope you're out there and can weigh in, because this is a pretty significant choice.

[Mardoc]

Keeping the conversation alive; if we're going to have a chance to extort the dwarves, we should probably do it now while he's nervous (NAP expires at EOT 140, I believe, and we just played T139).

[COLOR="Orange"]Square Leg,

I need to think about your offer, and discuss with Gaspar. I won't commit to anything until I've thought about it more, but I'll make a counterproposal so we can see if there's a zone of potential agreement.

Frankly, 15 gold/turn is not enough for me to keep up with you. I was thinking something more like 50 gpt, for a 20-30 turn period. Is that in a range that you would consider?

Regardless of what we can agree on for NAP, I would be willing to sign resource trades and open borders, but I don't have the game in front of me right now, so I'm not sure what I have to offer .

I agree that Hyborem is best avoided. I'm not really sure how close Bob is to Hyborem, except that I know he's had time to train Rosier, so all that's between him and Hybie is the remaining beaker cost of Infernal Pact. We're trying to reduce him as fast as possible, but it may not prove to be possible.

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

[Mardoc]

I would really like to be able to get to play with Ogres and Ritualists; I think that's a combo that's as scary as the Sons, really. Str 10 Iron Ogres, with Combat I, Enchanted Blades, +1 Apprenticeship promo, and Shamans around for Haste; that compares well to Str 10 Elementals + 50% Empower. The only thing missing is the ability to have 4 for free every turn, but with a large enough Warrens-powered empire, I ought to be able to manufacture them at that rate.

And of course, adding in collateral from the Ritualists would be quite useful.

Edit: more thoughts. My primary worry at this point is how to handle the 3v1 situation. I might, maybe, be able to take on all three of them at once, now, *if* Iskender actually Wanes the army he's been fighting with. We'll see how SL responds, 50 gpt would be enough to be significant, and equally importantly, would leave us definitely fighting one at a time, on our schedule. But it might be too much.

On the other hand, if I can't slow SL somehow, and/or boost myself - well, he's the one to hit. He's the one with the GNP twice ours, lots of nasty late-game golem tricks, etc.

[Gaspar]

I would really like to be able to get to play with Ogres and Ritualists; I think that's a combo that's as scary as the Sons, really. Str 10 Iron Ogres, with Combat I, Enchanted Blades, +1 Apprenticeship promo, and Shamans around for Haste; that compares well to Str 10 Elementals + 50% Empower. The only thing missing is the ability to have 4 for free every turn, but with a large enough Warrens-powered empire, I ought to be able to manufacture them at that rate.

And of course, adding in collateral from the Ritualists would be quite useful.

Edit: more thoughts. My primary worry at this point is how to handle the 3v1 situation. I might, maybe, be able to take on all three of them at once, now, *if* Iskender actually Wanes the army he's been fighting with. We'll see how SL responds, 50 gpt would be enough to be significant, and equally importantly, would leave us definitely fighting one at a time, on our schedule. But it might be too much.

On the other hand, if I can't slow SL somehow, and/or boost myself - well, he's the one to hit. He's the one with the GNP twice ours, lots of nasty late-game golem tricks, etc.

Well, and you'll still have the Sons. That's what really makes it effective, two disparate nasty things to focus on. Still let's not lose sight of the 4 Archmages as still the scariest part of this combo.

On the Square Leg dealings, I think you have a point. Clearly, the scariest thing that can happen at this point is an Iskender/Square Leg alliance against us. Equally likely, we can stop them, but our empire is getting to be sprawling enough that the Sons can't be everywhere, and if SL has Chalid supporting a bunch of Fireballing Golems or some such, he could be pretty scary by himself.

I also think the idea of a sole economic focus is probably the wrong one. The Sons should always be out harassing someone. So essentially the choice becomes between Square Leg or Serdoa after Bob. Square Leg is clearly the greater long term threat, but he'll also be much tougher to take down. If SL will give you 50 gpt for 30T, do it. If he's going to give you 20 gpt for 15T, hit him next.

[Mardoc]

On the Square Leg dealings, I think you have a point. Clearly, the scariest thing that can happen at this point is an Iskender/Square Leg alliance against us. Equally likely, we can stop them, but our empire is getting to be sprawling enough that the Sons can't be everywhere, and if SL has Chalid supporting a bunch of Fireballing Golems or some such, he could be pretty scary by himself.

I also think the idea of a sole economic focus is probably the wrong one. The Sons should always be out harassing someone. So essentially the choice becomes between Square Leg or Serdoa after Bob. Square Leg is clearly the greater long term threat, but he'll also be much tougher to take down. If SL will give you 50 gpt for 30T, do it. If he's going to give you 20 gpt for 15T, hit him next.

Ok, I think we're on the same page here. I definitely agree that the Sons should be working for their living, and that Square Leg/maybe Iskender are the ones to beat, although beating them might happen best via a detour through Sheaim lands. The biggest goal in diplo, therefore, is going to be making sure they're split apart. If we hit Square Leg now, then Tredje's already accomplished that for us; if we wait, then what will be most vital is ensuring they have separate ending dates to their NAPs, and in extracting enough from Square Leg that he can't race too far ahead of us on the tree.

The biggest advantage to being able to lean on the Sons, of course, is that most of the empire can focus on infrastructure while we're fighting and winning. Warrens have a similar effect - I'm able to spam troops from Braduk, while the rest of the empire catches up. But it's true, at some point soon we'll have to simply start spamming soldiers and let the economy fall where it will.

I'm thinking of sending this message to SL; I'm debating if I should let him stew or send it. He hasn't replied yet to my previous message, so I don't want to sound too eager, but I also would like to get my hands on that dwarven gold .

Also, do we add a reference to alternate means of extracting gold from dwarven cities (aka conquest/razing)?

[COLOR="Orange"]Square Leg,

I've discussed it with Gaspar, and I'm now willing to make this a firm offer - 50 gpt for a 30 turn NAP extension is something I'm willing to sign. Smaller numbers make me feel I'd just be giving the game away.

I see that I've proposed a number that makes you hesitate. Please let me know when you come to a conclusion.

And in any event, I look forward to seeing you around RB.

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

[Gaspar]

Ok, I think we're on the same page here. I definitely agree that the Sons should be working for their living, and that Square Leg/maybe Iskender are the ones to beat, although beating them might happen best via a detour through Sheaim lands. The biggest goal in diplo, therefore, is going to be making sure they're split apart. If we hit Square Leg now, then Tredje's already accomplished that for us; if we wait, then what will be most vital is ensuring they have separate ending dates to their NAPs, and in extracting enough from Square Leg that he can't race too far ahead of us on the tree.

The biggest advantage to being able to lean on the Sons, of course, is that most of the empire can focus on infrastructure while we're fighting and winning. Warrens have a similar effect - I'm able to spam troops from Braduk, while the rest of the empire catches up. But it's true, at some point soon we'll have to simply start spamming soldiers and let the economy fall where it will.

I'm thinking of sending this message to SL; I'm debating if I should let him stew or send it. He hasn't replied yet to my previous message, so I don't want to sound too eager, but I also would like to get my hands on that dwarven gold .

Also, do we add a reference to alternate means of extracting gold from dwarven cities (aka conquest/razing)?

Let him stew. You have the upper hand. There's no way he's going to attack now while you're allied with Iskender, so the longer it drags on, the better it is for you. But yes, 50gpt for 30T NAP is ideal, then we hit Serdoa after Bob and reassess. Anything less and just don't sign it and declare on SL instead...

... as you mentioned, there's another source of dirty Dwarven gold.

[Mardoc]

[COLOR="SandyBrown"]Hey Mardoc,

15gpt was my starting offer and I think there is definitely potential for us to come sort of arrangement here. I have to remember that any gold gift to you is infact a compensation of twice that amount in that you will be boosted while I am reduced. Your counter of 50gpt will even things out by 100gpt which is an awful lot.

I am willing to play the bartering game however so hopefully we can meet in the middle somewhere. Does 30gpt for 30t sound like a deal you could accept? That would be a total of 900g - the equivilant of a GM mission and i'm sure, a massive boost to your economy. I can send the money in chunks or as 30gpt - whichever works well for you.

The way I see it, you may as well get gold from me whilst ransacking someone else with the Sons no?

I have offered OB in game, I won't be offened if you don't feel you can accept at this juncture but thought it was best to offer.

Cheers,
SL[/COLOR]

Ok, letting him stew definitely was a good idea. So, we're squarely into the range where I'm unsure whether this is worth accepting or not. I think I need to look at the save to figure out precisely where we are and where he is, GNP-wise. I do notice that he's aiming to exaggerate the effect, rhetorically, so I might want to bring up Barbarian and Libraries to counter it.

I'm debating between coming back with 40 gpt or remaining inflexible at 50 gpt. Although granting him 30 more turns of building would be scary enough, there is significant value in ensuring division in the foes, if this boosts us/slows him enough that we don't let him tech to something uber without us being able to keep up. I don't think 30 is quite enough for me to feel comfortable with that last.

You're better at reading people than I am, Gaspar. Does this read as still negotiating to you? Can we push him further? Can we push him all the way to 50? Certainly if he agrees on 50, we'll sign; I'm going to look for more info to decide how much less I'm willing to tolerate.

Specifically, what I need is his current GNP and our current GNP. I figure it's reasonable to ask for enough to close half the difference; we can't demand so much that we're actually ahead of him GNP and have him accept, but 30 still feels like not enough. On the one hand, we have more cities than him already, will be gaining 3-5 more Balseraph cities, 2-3 Barb cities, and potentially Sheaim cities, to help make up any current gap; on the other hand, he only needs little things like libraries and cottage growth to dramatically boost his income. Maybe a renewed look at the save will help me put this in perspective.

Open borders will be very handy, in the event Iskender wants to try to cut us off. And to the best of my knowledge, it doesn't bind us in any way to accept these alone, regardless of what else we want to try to do.

[Mardoc]

Ok, some hard numbers to plug into the question:

First, the graph. Note that SL was doing binary research, so no particular date is binding. Also note he's clearly #1.



Let's take the numbers from the last 3 turns and average them:




That puts him at 266 GNP, while we're at 111, a difference of 155.

Suddenly 30 gpt, even doubled to 60, doesn't look so big. On the other hand, I can see why 50 gpt, doubled to 100, seems iffy to him - that would close the distance by more than half. Maybe 40 is the number to shoot for.

[COLOR="Orange"]
Dear Square Leg,

I see it comes down to the price. . I take your point about the transfer being effectively doubled, and that it's unreasonable to ask you to completely catch us up. On the other hand, looking at our data for the past three turns, I've got you at an average GNP of 266, while we're poking along at 111. That's a difference of 155! In light of that, you can see that a mere 30 gpt leaves us still way behind. On the other hand, I can see that 50 would almost catch us up, on its own. Perhaps a fair number is 40 gpt? That would let us halfway catch up, and remove the temptation to simply take the gold, without taking away all your advantages.

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

[Mardoc]

Also, the turn came back around, leaving me with a tactical conundrum.

I moved the priests NW of Jubilee and gifted you the city. I left it unguarded, but there's nothing that can reach it this turn and I'm blocking the way back for the skeletons (or rather hasted puppets/adepts, skeletons wouldn't reach it anyway).

I moved 8 tigers onto the desert hill SE-SE of Coombe View. They'll arrive in the city next turn. I'll actually be able to reach CV with the priests before Bob's skeleton stack, I'm heading that way, slowly preparing to remove the priests from the scene. I'll leave the tigers if you need them, maybe there'll be an opportunity to cause Seroda some mischief, he's my last chance to make use of Into the mist, and I'll keep hawking of course.

What's Bob going to do, and how do I best stop him? Do I trust Iskender to defend CV for me (and if not, do I care much if I lose it?). The stack next to Bob's, with Haste, can beat the skellies to either CV or to Jubilee. It can even split and try to do both (it's 2 axes, 3 warriors, and 2 shamans). I would prefer for the Sons stack to keep pressing onward, to Guell and Hexam and anything else that might add adepts and puppets to the Balseraph empire.

Right now, I'm leaning toward moving the stack back to CV, casting Enchanted Blade to counter the Rust and regain the soldiers' weapons, and expecting Bob to come to me. Meanwhile the Sons can go take another city. As long as I stay within 5 squares of Jubilee, I can cover it with elementals, and hopefully Iskender decides to whittle the stack down for me before Bob can do too much more. The trouble with this approach is that it doesn't give me much to garrison Jubilee and my new conquests with, and ties the Sons to a radius for a while.

[Mardoc]

You know, I thought about the Iskender/Bob thing, and ultimately I come down on the side of protecting Jubilee. Iskender's claiming he's defending CV, but deliberately left Jubilee vulnerable, and no wonder - it's got the AV shrine, which is entropy mana and significant beaker infusion, which will only grow as we go up the Ritualist path, as well as an Academy. All Coombe View has that's special is an already built Market and Dereptus. It'll be easier for me to reinforce, too, assuming it survives. Primary focus at the moment needs to be reducing Bob ASAP.

This is definitely an unfriendly act by Iskender, leaving me to hang in the wind like this, not even with warning. It doesn't change any of our deals, but it makes me much less likely to want to leave him alive in the end

So, I took Guell this turn, moved the stack toward Jubilee, brought in a Fire elemental to guard it, and killed off the top unit at Hexam. Which might, maybe, be the last mainland city. There's certainly not more than 2 mainland cities remaining, but 3 or 4 remaining Clown cities overall. Triremes will definitely be necessary.

And, on that note, Rantine was born and began heading toward the SW Barb cities, to convert them to the cause of shipbuilding for fun and profit .

All that's left for the moment is deciding what to do about/with Square Leg, and securing the mainland so Bob can't harass me out of my gains.

Plans for next turn; secure something with SL. Probably take Hexam, and move the Sons back toward Jubilee to deal with that adept/skeleton stack if Iskender continues to leave it alive.