FTL - Faster Than Light

[T-hawk]

I also think you underrate beams, which you haven't really talked about.  Bursts are to drop the shields.  Beams deliver the killer damage.  I never lose a run with a halberd beam, and pike/hull/mini beams are also good enough the vast majority of the time.  Nothing else delivers the 8-10 damage of a halberd beam or even the 4-5 of the lesser ones.  Two halberd/glaive or three pike/hull shots will kill anything.  Never mind disabling or defanging or burning or otherwise messing around, it just kills. And by enough margin that you don't need to care about rewards from crew kills.

With a beam, you don't need good burst weapons.  It doesn't have to be BL2 or flak.  Anything that puts out enough projectiles to momentarily pop the shields is all you need, even mediocre stuff like the 2-shot chain laser or hull laser.  Or hacking can drain the shields since the beam ignores evasion.  No, not every run gets a beam, but I'd estimate about 50% do by sector 3 and 75% by sector 6, and several ships (Zoltan A) start with one.  Any run that gets a workable beam doesn't need any gimmick like ions/fire at all.

(Crossposted with your last, but I don't think you said anything where I hadn't already presented my argument.)

[TheMeInTeam]

It's not that I underestimate beams, it's that we both think they're good and so I didn't fixate on them much (in particular halberd is an easy top 5 weapon for me, maybe top 3). I like most beams in general, though glaive brings back bad memories of stealth B.

There's actually trick you might not know about beams, which makes halberd even more disgusting. https://www.reddit.com/r/ftlgame/comment...ky_swipes/

That said, I like to have enough targeted system damage to break RFS missiles. Most 1 damage beams make that awkward, but with halberd you only need to hit 1 more damage in phase 1 and 2. Halberd also makes me willing to hack shields over evasion, because you can then halberd beam piloting or engines (preferably piloting) towards weapons before dumping your entire remaining volley on weapons vs a target with damaged/no evasion.

Other beams are good but less so, because they either charge slowly or don't do as much targeted system damage as I'd like. Pike for example needs the linked trick to do more than 1 damage to enemy weapon systems; with a different weapon I'm more likely to completely shut down opposing offense earlier, even if the ship dies later as a result. For most encounters I'll take that trade, especially because other than minibeam most beams typically slow down volley slightly too.

I use them more than ion-heavy builds. Ships that start with a beam tend to end the game with that same beam, and I only rarely sell them (most typically a late glaive drop when I've already got a game-winning build that's faster).

The real "gimmick" is missiles. So many liabilities. They didn't even have the decency to give Rock A explosive replicator .

[Mardoc]

T-Hawk, I think you're arguing a different point than TMIT is.

I read this as the heart of his argument:

When you sell any weapon to buy another, we're usually talking about a 30-50 scrap differential.  The new weapon doesn't just have to be better, it has to be better by enough to justify the scrap given up to acquire it, sometimes at direct expense of having a good system like hacking or cloaking earlier.

I don't read this as 'go for ions', I read this as 'don't go out of your way to replace ions'.  If the game gives you lemons, make lemonade, don't throw the lemons back in the game's face and demand lasers instead.

He's not saying that ions are optimal, he's saying that sometimes ions are on the cheapest path to Good Enough Weapons from where you start, and once you're Good Enough, it doesn't matter if you could theoretically have a better setup.

[TankSinatra]

Never mind disabling or defanging or burning or otherwise messing around, it just kills.  And by enough margin that you don't need to care about rewards from crew kills.

What do you mean by margin? I'm not taking any extra damage when I get crew kills - I'm spending time but not hull.

[T-hawk]

Halberd is absolute top 1 unquestionably for me, not merely top-3 or 5.  It adds the most win equity both in absolute terms and relative to similar options.

I do the same plan vs the flagship or other late and tough enemies: hack shields, swipe the beam starting from piloting to knock out the evasion before projectiles impact.  Beams are great with shield hacking - the charge time closely matches the time for hacking to arrive and drain, which isn't so for the faster bursts/flaks.

I'd seen isolated reports of beams double-hitting but hadn't seen those details or tried it myself.  I've been trying to stay away from FTL the last few years since I know it'll suck me back in to a monthslong project of playing all the ships all over again.

He's not saying that ions are optimal, he's saying that sometimes ions are on the cheapest path to Good Enough Weapons from where you start, and once you're Good Enough, it doesn't matter if you could theoretically have a better setup.

I get that; yes, there are cases where ions will constitute the highest win-equity-per-scrap option.  What we're disagreeing on is the proportion of those cases; TMIT says 25%, I think it's not over 2%.  Really that should be differentiated between ships; if you start with an ion I could see maybe as much as 10%, but if you don't then it's indistinguishable from 0%.

What do you mean by margin? I'm not taking any extra damage when I get crew kills - I'm spending time but not hull.

I mean that bursts-and-beams is powerful enough to win the game that you don't need or care about the extra scrap for trying to do crew kills instead.  If you can kill crew by spending time but not hull/consumables, that is fine.  I'm saying not to invest anything (including a weapon slot) into trying to enable that crew kill.

[TheMeInTeam]

I get that; yes, there are cases where ions will constitute the highest win-equity-per-scrap option. What we're disagreeing on is the proportion of those cases; TMIT says 25%, I think it's not over 2%. Really that should be differentiated between ships; if you start with an ion I could see maybe as much as 10%, but if you don't then it's indistinguishable from 0%.

To clarify, I mean using ions in any capacity. Going ion heavy like the examples I'm showing is nowhere near 25%, though I've used it more lately as I've become more comfortable with how to play it. Sub-10% is more fair for that, if playing random ships. There's a lot of times like this where selling the ion is usually a mistake though: https://i.imgur.com/uMYz0cW.jpg. Ultimately I added a heavy laser + hacking later and won easily...I could have replaced ion but would have sacrificed buying hacking.

Edit: Setups like Zoltan B can grab 3rd ion weapon, hack shields, and rake pike over a bunch of systems with ion followup, and enjoy complete safety afterward in nearly every fight. Ion charger + expert crew is enough to sustain cascade with that help since missing won't be a problem and you're getting ~5 ion damage/10s.

I mean that bursts-and-beams is powerful enough to win the game that you don't need or care about the extra scrap for trying to do crew kills instead. If you can kill crew by spending time but not hull/consumables, that is fine. I'm saying not to invest anything (including a weapon slot) into trying to enable that crew kill.

It's worth noting that pure bursts/flak can pick up at least crew kills too. Vs any ship design that doesn't have threatening weapons you just hack oxygen down then shoot it out at the end of the hack. IMO this is usually worth the hacking drone unless you're low on them, as in addition to scrap you're getting more freebie drops/augments/crew this way.

[T-hawk]

There's a lot of times like this where selling the ion is usually a mistake though: https://i.imgur.com/uMYz0cW.jpg.

So how does that go tactically? Just one charge ion isn't enough to maintain any stunlock or cascade. How high do you charge it, what do you aim it at, how do you time it along with the burst laser? That shot looks like you just autofire it at shields?

I will use one ion gun like that if it's all I've got, but really just as a virtual burst laser to get through one or two shields in a volley, not to do anything ionic.

[TheMeInTeam]

Usually you let it charge to 2 or 3, missile shields, fire it off and let it keep going. It's inferior to BL 1 for charge time but not so inferior that it'd be worth selling to buy a BL 1. That's especially true for halberd setups since 3 ion charges and halberd are pretty close to each other (~1s), the halberd's 2 damage guarantees a weapon gets disabled, and the triple ions stand a good chance to take down two additional weapons for 15s due to evasion hit (enough time to get hacking up and repeat before most things could possibly fire). Even two ions hitting is crippling to opposing ship. Not only will this kill a ship fast due to halberd damage, it completely ruins opposing offense.

IMO for most cases other than stuff like above where I'm just holding shields down for a while after a missile shot, ions should *not* be fired at a shield system, thinking in those terms limits too much utility. Almost everyone I see on reddit will target shields exclusively with them. Even with that setup, if I need another weapon down I'll toss an ion at weapons on the ~4.8s cooldown from expert gunner to drop its charge.

[TheMeInTeam]

I've done a few more streamed runs, taking my record there to 8-1 (stupid play late game in 1st Fed A run still irks me). Since I'm doing A variants as if unlocking next ship, the last three have been Slug A, Rock A, and Stealth A...these ships will almost never see ion gameplay unless an Engi ship is shooting some at them. I was worried as usual going into the Rock A run given shop RNG, but FTL decided that I should get a free win with it and dumped a BL2 in my lap early sector 1, then offered up two flak 1's and a Zoltan shield later. What a stupid easy run for a terrible ship. Nearly died to bad events in mid sectors with slug A, but that ended with 7 flak/burst + heavy laser.

The stealth A run was more novel. Bad miss luck --> hit weapons in sector 1 to take ~10 damage. I bought shields over hacking sector 2 and regretted, left me using starting weapons + heavy laser into sector 4. At one point I had 1 fuel and an AI ship with 3 shields hand a dd2...but also lacked weaponry to damage me. > 10 minutes later it ran out of drones that got hit by my weapons and I won. Next shop offered hacking and crew TP, with mantis crew and enough to buy both they were obvious purchases.

I wind up with crew TP on unorthodox ships a fair amount, looking over old pictures even a chunk of Kestrel, Stealth, and Engi wins used one. I think my tendency for this comes from the consistency; there are lots of different weapons you might or might not see later, while if you have the crew for it or hacking picking up a crew TP gives you a win condition right then. TP/hack/cloak + bomb is fantastic consistency, very rarely taking damage in random battles, getting crew kill rewards, and having a near-free run on RFS phase 1/2. Not enough evasion luck to take 0 damage phase 3 unfortunately, which prompted a bit of unnecessary spite in retaliation. https://i.imgur.com/NSIEEde.jpg

[TankSinatra]

I was surprised to see you with the teleporter in that run. I don't think I've ever bought one on hard - I'd much rather have mind control. But it obviously worked out for you.

I decided I needed to come to grips with the Mantis C, and once it worked it *really* worked. I got three free charge 2s (I wound up using two of them with a flak 1 I bought), as well as several other weapons, a whole bunch of drones, and more crew than I needed. I was 58 scrap away from maxing out every system (which I could have gotten, but I didn't want to risk any more damage in sector 8). I lucked into long range scanners early and the unfinished flagship event.

It's such an odd and awkward ship at first, but by the end of sector 4 it was clear that I couldn't lose.