In short, Azarius got heavily involved in the Jowy thing, alongside Zak, Novice and me. Azarius supported my attacks on Jowy, meaning that vote wise, we were very much on the same page yesterday. This again makes me unsure why he opened today with a vote on me.
Throughout this time, MJW was around but didn’t comment on JOwy either way. Jkaen said almost nothing.
GAZGLUM #214: I accuse Jowy of shiftiness
AZARIUS #233: Azarius comments on it, joins the attack
MJW #235: MJW says he's back, not commenting on Jowy
JKAEN #245: Jkaen attacks MJW for hypocrisy, also says he’s having internet trouble (which might explain him not being around much after).
JKAEN #304: Jkaen’s first post on Jowy situation, says he gives him a town lean
Zak and Novice (318 and 312) suddenly jump votes to MJW, putting him into the lead. Jkaen possibly caught on him? Who knows. But Jkaen doesn’t post again until #405 just before, which my computer tells me is about a 42 hour break, including the lynch and its discussion aftermath.
Well, its not a huge pile of evidence and maybe was a waste of time. But I can see Jkaen as a scumbuddy with MJW, there was a lot of talking between them, but Jkaen was a bit wishy-washy: defending MJW's hypocrisy early on, then seeming to use it as a reason to vote him on Day 2. His MJW vote seems like a pressure vote to make MJw give more info, but when MJW does exactly that Jkaen stays on him through the vote. Maybe Jkaen was caught on him and felt like he couldn't switch after Zak and Novice joined him.
I still think Azarius looks somewhat bad for calling the attack on Mattimeo day 1 'weak', but going on to vote him all through Day 2.
Jkaen also avoids giving any opinion on Azarius as far as I can see, so I would like to get that from him today.
My top suspects are probably Azarius > Jkaen > Zak > Jowy at the moment. I can see people's logic about Azza, but he's just felt townish to me.
Quote:JKAEN #211: Decides that Q not so random as he thought, changes his vote to MJW vote as a seeming pressure vote, asks him to clarify his thoughts. This is the last time he says anything about MJW as a suspect, but the vote rides through to lynch.
isn't true - Jkaen does post again about MJW, saying he is a hypocrite, as I said later. My first time through I had missed that.
Loving the no-kill!
Would be funny if they're going for a no-kill bluff
(August 31st, 2013, 15:58)novice Wrote:
(August 27th, 2013, 05:02)Gazglum Wrote: (Aside: I don't understand what you mean by mountainous there Mattimeo.)
You're right that I wasn't very clear in my attack on you. WHen I said oh so casual, I mean a studied casualness. A 'let's throw out a conversational tidbit to end the conversation and perhaps divert it a bit'. It just didn't read as natural to me. I know that will be frustrating to read for you if you're town, but that's the vibe I got and I still got it.
I'll try and explain a bit better. Werewolf is obviously a game where we have to ask each other questions, but there are different kinds of questions you can ask. Direct questions aimed at getting information from a specific person are good, like "CH, why do you think Azza is shady?"
But questions are also a way for scum to fill space and seem to contribute without having to put themselves out there with reads. So leading questions, or rhetorical questions, or questions not really aimed at anybody in particular ping my scumdar. Your "why is this a common thing here?" is just like that. It's not aimed at anybody, it's not really relevant, it's a way of involving yourself without involving yourself.
The other play I've noted playing the questioning game is Azarius.
Quote:I agree in part, but it's not as black and white in my opinion. Only if abnormality leads to play that does not catch wolves, only then it is a scum tell, though it is suspicious and good to take note of regardless. Someone playing a different game could also be a villager trying to be more effective and beneficial to the village, at least I would hope that players learn from their mistakes and try to play better every game. And I realize you did say that acting differently is suspicious as opposed to a scum tell, but from the context I figured you were using those words interchangeably (which I am not in this post :P)
Jowy, how do you get this from what Jkaen said? I read what he wrote as saying that acting anti-town isn't necessarily[/spoiler] a scum tell, but he believes acting differently is suspicious and therefore a scum tell. Correct me if I misunderstand please Jkaen.
Question for Jowy, question of Jkaen, but not really adding anything. He's parroting Jkaen. And the stance he takes he lessens by suggesting that maybe he misunderstood after all. All so...casual. But Azarius is new, and comparing the posts, I think I like you for scum more than him, Mattimeo. I'm trying the Ichabod strategy - go with my gut on an outlier Day 1.
I know it's a reach, but its day 1 and I don't have much else to go on. I don't like this MJW attack, how many games have we played where MJW has been the subject of this kind of discussion Day 1? He's always drawing attention to himself. And he's a blabbermouth (as am I MJW!), so when he is a wolf he's more likely to leave clues or trip himself up later anyway.
I've said in a lot of games that I dont' like the way Day 1s so often end with lynching the loud person, because the its quiet sharks you gotta watch out for. Last game I then went against that philosophy and tried to kill Jowy, but that was because I was a noob wolf struggling to make reads and looking for a mislynch.
This time I'll stick to my guns. Azarius and Mattimeo are my top suspects, and they're both on MJW. I don't like the wagon. If necessary, I'd vote Azarius over Mattimeo if that would tip it away from MJW.[/spoiler]
Gazglum is my top suspect. If he's scum it's not so clear who his scumbuddy is, though.Do you have anything more then his defence of MJW/voting to save him?
While posts like that are very bad in retrospect, especially voting to defend him, have you noticed anything particularly scummy about his posts? I'm heasitant because I don't feel like scum would be so aggressive about protecting their own like that (especially so close to the lynch), and (IIRC) Scumglum played pretty cautiously last game.
(August 31st, 2013, 20:33)Gazglum Wrote: Hah, rhetorical question alert. I guess if Mattimeo wants to hoist me on my petard for a while, I can't complain.
What?
(August 31st, 2013, 23:06)Gazglum Wrote:
(August 31st, 2013, 11:22)zakalwe Wrote: Jowy, why do you think MJW didn't have much longevity? And regardless of why you think so, Gazglum looks very scummy for parroting that idea.
MJW was a leading candidate for the noose Day 1, and then hadn't changed his behaviour Day 2. Q and Jkaen had been on him Day 2. Serdoa had attacked him. If we had mislynched another candidate Day 2, then one of the alternative theories to MJW would have been shot and he would be one the most popular suspects left alive. I can imagine MJW skating past another day or so, but I really can't see that he could have made it all the way - especially if he was still around at LyLo.
I'm not trying to excuse my not voting him by saying I would totally have got him later, if that's what you're implying. I just don't think he would have got to the finish line, and that means I think it is premature to automatically assume that at least one of the scum wouldn't be willing to join a bus brigade for town points.
While I agree that a bus is possible, I disagree that he would eventually be lynched. The case on him wasn't really changing, he wasn't playing any different, so I don't think people would've started jumping on him Day 3 paticularly - I know I was all but ready to switch off him in favor of someone who would actually get lynched.
I don't get the bolded bit - why would scum kill off one of their alternatives (like matt/jowy) to lynch rather then someone attacking scum? I think the attack on him could've got weaker if they killed someone like me off or just indirectly as they controlled more of the lynch.
Also, he only had to skate on another day - if we didn't lynch another scum or get a no-kill, then day 3 would've been LyLo.
Quote:But speaking of parroting, looking back through the days, I've noticed Azarius following in my footsteps a fair bit.
> Jowy says 'should one vote for the lesser of two evils?
> Glum
(August 29th, 2013, 06:58)Gazglum Wrote: If you're on at deadline then yes, you should vote for the lesser of two evils. BEcause even if you're right about your target (Zak) being a wolf, one of the two players on the block might be as well. And if it is a wolf vs villager contest, and you're abstaining by voting Zak, then you're making it easier for the wolves to make sure their man doesn't hang. There's nothing to stop you saying, "Zak is my first preference, but for the purpose of this lynch I'll vote X".
> Azarius
(August 29th, 2013, 13:52)Azarius Wrote: Jowy… You say you aren't sure if you should vote for the lesser of two evils, instead of someone you yourself suspect. Certainly throughout the day vote your suspicions, I'm not saying you should blindly follow others. But at the end of the day, if you are voting somewhere it is impossible to matter, it is suspect to me. Leaving your vote on as the sole vote on someone going into a lynch makes it easier to hide if you are scum, and you can just say "it is who I suspect".
On posting style:
> Glum
(August 29th, 2013, 16:19)Gazglum Wrote: I'm back, and I'm unimpressed by what I've seen from Jowy overnight. It's harder to get a baseline on him, because he mixes up his styles game to game. But two aspects of his village play as nogrammarJowy and Muriel were consistent: he was at or near the top in post-count, and he commented on everybody. In his first game I remember him making some complete ordered suspect lists, and he made incisive comments on several people including pegging me as a wolf from the start.
> Azarius
(August 29th, 2013, 16:44)Azarius Wrote: Gazglum raises a good point on Jowy's prolific posting from earlier games. Last game at times it felt as is half of what I read was from Muriel, he seemed to comment on almost everything. Definitely more subdued posting this game from him. I don't necessarily think by itself this is damning, but it does add to my general suspicion of him.
On Yes-Man Zak:
> Glum
(August 30th, 2013, 07:20)Gazglum Wrote: Zak -...my main issue is that he is following Novice a lot, rather than starting his own attacks. If he's still alive Day 4, I might start throwing a few sceptical third world child looks his way. But no real scum tells at the moment.
> Glum
(August 31st, 2013, 10:07)Gazglum Wrote: While you're on, I'd like to ask you about Zak. Basicalyl every move you've made this game, he's come in straight behind you and parroted it. Often without even providing any reasoning at the time. I'm not rereading now, but I think he copied you on the possibility of lynching Serdoa, on voting me start of Day 2, on pressuring Jowy, and finally on switching votes to MJW at the end of the day. If Zak is scum looking to play a long game, I think he would be willing to bus MJW, and do it early enough to get town credit. After all, it wasn't likely MJW was going to last that many more days as it is.
> Azarius
(August 31st, 2013, 11:09)Azarius Wrote: Any particular reason why you're just following Novice? There are certainly worse choices to follow this game, but you seem to have spent quite a bit of time on his coattails.
Hmm, interesting. I'll try to look through Azarius' posts if I ever get a spare minute.
Quote:Finally, Mattimeo, looking back through I don't think you're scum anymore. MJW's behaviour towards you doesn't make sense to me if you were. So...sorry and stuff, I guess?
Which behaviour? Day 2 attacks or the end game posts?
I'm sorry I've been very busy, but I'll try to read the rest and respond later.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
Did check the thread a few times in the period I was silent from my phone, but generally saw nothing that demanded I jump on.
Also concider it co-incidence or not, but that period I was posting low was my weekend. You may not feel its ethical for me to keep going missing of a weekend, but thats definetly not a scum tell on me.
As for a proper defense... I am not exactly sure what I am being accused of here
(September 1st, 2013, 04:58)novice Wrote: Gazglum, were you convinced that MJW was innocent or that Matt was scum? Why?
My biased opinion is that Zak is town.
I wasn't convinced of anything. Day 1 I thought Matt was the best pick, but it was still a Day 1 case. MJW I thought was acting in character for him, and that it would be an easy wagon for wolves to be on. I thought he was probably innocent.
Day 2 I grew less sure about MJW and moved him up to about third on my scum list in post #290. However, I admit that there was a fair gap between my two lead candidates and him, and 'about third' is a goodlace to put a scumbuddy, so it doesn't prove much. Mattimeo's responses to my questions and what I saw as his refusal to make strong reads or cases on people meant that I was further sure he was scum. However, I thought Jowy seemed a fairer vote because he really wasn't answering anybody's questions at all.
Jowy calmed down a bit and finally posted some content while I was asleep, so that put Mattimeo higher for me. At lynch I was fairly sure, if not convinced because you can never be convinced, that Mattimeo was scum. And because it was then a 2 horse race and I doubted the wolves would have managed to let themselves both up on the block, I therefore assumed MJW was innocent.
My opinion is that Zak is following your lead on decisions. If you know you are innocent and think they are the right decisions, I can see why you are ok with that, but can you see why it makes it hard for other people to get a bead on him? It would be easier for me if you guys discussed your thoughts with each other more.
Oh, that read post (#244) of MJW's that has been brought up a couple of times by Gazglum now. The reason I didnt respond to it, was because it said pretty much nothing, as was pointed out at the time by somebody else.
The whole read on everybody was so grey, apart from I did notice he gave you a slight town lean.
Also what happened to your pushes on your old candidates, today seems to be a complete switch of targets.
(August 31st, 2013, 20:33)Gazglum Wrote: Hah, rhetorical question alert. I guess if Mattimeo wants to hoist me on my petard for a while, I can't complain.
What?
That was a reference to my Day 1 attack on Matt, which began with a accusation about rhetorical questions.
Quote:I don't get the bolded bit - why would scum kill off one of their alternatives (like matt/jowy) to lynch rather then someone attacking scum? I think the attack on him could've got weaker if they killed someone like me off or just indirectly as they controlled more of the lynch.
I wasn't saying scum would kill off the alternatives, but that if we had mislynched them, the number of good candidates for suspicion would have dropped the next day. That MJW would be in a shrinking pool of people who had been taking heat from multiple sides.
Quote:Also, he only had to skate on another day - if we didn't lynch another scum or get a no-kill, then day 3 would've been LyLo.
I don't think that's right. If we mislynched Day 2 it would be 5 town, 3 scum day 3. Then if we mislynched again it would be 3 town 3 scum. That would still allow for another day, by my calculation.
Quote:Which behaviour? Day 2 attacks or the end game posts?
Not so much MJW voting Mattimeo, as he had to, but early on Day 2 saying things like "I think we have to lynch Mattimeo". Maybe I'm swinging back too far the other way now because I feel a bit ashamed. I wouldn't call Mattimeo cleared, because I still think he has been unhelpful up until now. But he does seem less likely to me now.
