WW27 Game Thread: Once there were 12

[Qgqqqqq]

Looking over the Azarius/Gazglum quotes in greater detail, and I don't think what you posted was entirely fair. All three of those were common issues being talked about - zak as following novices lead, Jowys post style and Jowys policy of not being on a lynch target - were all things that I for one had similar views on, and quite possibly posted before you (haven't checked). That feels, like you say later, like a collection of posts designed to look bad rather then an actual case.
If you're asking coincidence versus conspiracy, I'm definitely seeing the coincidence.
I'll still look over his posts though.

[Jkaen]

I agree with Jowy's take on who's scum, I think Q's analysis is overthinking things.

Town leans:
zakalwe, Jowy, novice - decisive votes on MJW
jkaen - voted MJW, and I already had a town lean from his posts
Qgqqqqq - MJW's strongest pursuer
Mattimeo - MJW's target and alternative lynch option

I disagree with giving Jkaen and Mattimeo town leans based on the votes.

Jkaen was on him very early, and his vote comes (in post 211, I tried to spoiler it in but nested spoilers seem to act strangely) with a request for him to give his thoughts on all the players. He does also state that he thinks MJW may be hiding behind his reputation, but that and prodding someone for their thoughts does not imply a strong stance. Moreover, at the time he made the vote, it was so early in the day Novice and Zakalwe were still on Gazglum. Q was on MJW, but he was the only one. By the time of his last post of the day, pressure had moved on to Jowy, and MJW still had only Q and himself on him, and discussion wasn't really on MJW either.

As far as Mattimeo, I don't think we can clear him based on him being MJW's target. As he said himself when he made the vote, he was the only target with more than one vote. I can't speak for everyone but I would certainly find it suspicious if, knowing that MJW was online, he didn't make a self defense vote onto the only other person with multiple votes on them.

Gazglum.

Isn't this one of the main facets of your argument against me (yes I am reviewing his posts for you).

Why would scum Azarius put together the main argument against scumjkaen, given there are probably just the 2 scum left?

[Gazglum]

Ok, didnt expect to be attacked, but fair enough.

Did check the thread a few times in the period I was silent from my phone, but generally saw nothing that demanded I jump on.

Also concider it co-incidence or not, but that period I was posting low was my weekend. You may not feel its ethical for me to keep going missing of a weekend, but thats definetly not a scum tell on me.

As for a proper defense... I am not exactly sure what I am being accused of here

I guess my main questions would be,

- Did you vote MJW on Day 2 to pressure him to give clearer opinions, or because you thought he was scum?
- If you thought he was scum, what had changed since Day 1 to make the case on him? You mentioned hypocrisy about the CH voters, but I didn't really follow what you mean there.

I remember you have weekend troubles from previous games, so that is a fair point.

The main point of all that was I wanted to raise that I can see a plausible scenario where you are scum (a good scum), and I don't think people should be clearing you as town. I don't think there is enough there to vote you.

You might be right about I'm letting Mattimeo off too much now. But after rereading, Azarius has become my top suspect, and Day 2 Azarius and MJW were both voting Mattimeo, and that doesn't makes sense to me if they were all three wolf buddies. They could instead have ganged up on Jowy, for example.

If Azarius was lynched and came up innocent, that would bring Mattimeo up to a scum candidate again for me.

[Jkaen]

Ok reviewed Azar's posts and while I am not blown away by anything he is giving opinions on other peoples theories, coming up withy non-stupid comments and thoughts himself, and generally contributing.

Certainly see no reason to vote him.

The only reason I am currently not voting Gaxglum however is I want to convince myself I am not getting influenced by self defense first

[Jkaen]

Day 1 I felt MJW was just his crazy self again with the zak issue.

But then more and more wierd theories started coming up and I started to suspect he was overplaying his reputation a bit, so my vote went on him to try and explain himself so I could pin down his actual thoughts to then counter follow up ideas of his. However his big post basically said nothing, so I decided he was trying to fence sit too much, hence good chance of scum.

Cant remember the exact details, but from memory the hypocrisy was him saying people were scum for doing X when I felt he was doing the same thing.

[Jkaen]

My other alternative right now would probably be one of the brothers (I guess zak). I just feel the votes are floating around a bit too much, at the moment I am putting this to them casting round for a tell then can sieze on.

Heck about time I got a vote on the board

Gazglum

[Gazglum]

Gazglum.

Isn't this one of the main facets of your argument against me (yes I am reviewing his posts for you).

Why would scum Azarius put together the main argument against scumjkaen, given there are probably just the 2 scum left?

Distancing? Perhaps because he thought it was going to come up anyway, so he could get town points for doing it, as people were starting to ask questions about his involvement. But yes, there's no strong case on you.

-----

Q, you're right that the posts you quoted isn't strong evidence in itself. What it showed to me was that a player who hasn't been contributing that much, also hasn't been very original when he does contribute. But my main case against Azarius is simpler than that, and maybe I made a mistake in throwing up so much detail.

Why did Azarius vote for Mattimeo with me Day 2, think that it was a strong case, also join me in attacking Jowy, say he was surprised to see MJW turn out scum, then not really discuss me overnight, and then jump on the Glumwagon without explanation at the start of Day 3?

A smaller thing, why did he vote for Mattimeo to the end of the line Day 2 if he thought there wasn't a good case on him Day 1?

[novice]

Gazglum, were you convinced that MJW was innocent or that Matt was scum? Why?

My biased opinion is that Zak is town.

I wasn't convinced of anything. Day 1 I thought Matt was the best pick, but it was still a Day 1 case. MJW I thought was acting in character for him, and that it would be an easy wagon for wolves to be on. I thought he was probably innocent.

Day 2 I grew less sure about MJW and moved him up to about third on my scum list in post #290. However, I admit that there was a fair gap between my two lead candidates and him, and 'about third' is a goodlace to put a scumbuddy, so it doesn't prove much. Mattimeo's responses to my questions and what I saw as his refusal to make strong reads or cases on people meant that I was further sure he was scum. However, I thought Jowy seemed a fairer vote because he really wasn't answering anybody's questions at all.

Jowy calmed down a bit and finally posted some content while I was asleep, so that put Mattimeo higher for me. At lynch I was fairly sure, if not convinced because you can never be convinced, that Mattimeo was scum. And because it was then a 2 horse race and I doubted the wolves would have managed to let themselves both up on the block, I therefore assumed MJW was innocent.

What about Jowy's responses caused you to move him back below Matt on your suspect list?

[Gazglum]

What about Jowy's responses caused you to move him back below Matt on your suspect list?

Basically, we'd been asking Jowy all day to give his opinion on players and he hadn't been. This:

I've got mixed feelings on Matt. He's got an attitude problem, he hasn't pursued any cases and has played a reactionary game. I wasn't a fan of the vote on MJW, due to the reason being that MJW is anti-town, though Matt did mention that he had nothing solid to go with and only voted because no-lynch was not an option. At least the MJW vote is significantly more townish than if he had voted for CH, who turned out villager and was the one he was racing against. We've quite firmly seen that the majority thinks that players should answer questions that they are asked of, and Matt does this. On one hand he is doing what the players want and not being evasive, but on the other hand spending all his online time on questions casts a bad light on him because he's not scum hunting. As for his answers, I like them. There are some Day 1 stuff that I disagree with, but I didn't find any of his answers scummy. I think all in all, he's got a slight village lean in my eyes.

ANd this:

TBH I don't like any of our three options today.. I have a village lean on both MJW and Matt, and I obviously don't want to die myself. Jkaen and Azza are two others I have a village lean on. Would be willing to join the bandwagon on anyone else. Btw I will also make a self-defense vote if necessary, just letting you know now.

Were a step in the right direction.

But it was a little irrelevant anyway, because I woke up 10 minutes before the lynch, saw that the only possible choice was between Mattimeo and MJW, and so I voted based on my comparative feelings towards them.

[novice]

What about Jowy's responses caused you to move him back below Matt on your suspect list?

I woke up 10 minutes before the lynch, saw that the only possible choice was between Mattimeo and MJW, and so I voted based on my comparative feelings towards them.

So at that point, was Jowy still your top suspect?