[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[Adlain]

now for the un-initiated care to explain how much that gold could help you (and what sort of numbers are we talking about)

[Cyneheard]

Shall anything more be said?

[pocketbeetle]

now for the un-initiated care to explain how much that gold could help you (and what sort of numbers are we talking about)

As in base Civ4, Gold is a strong resource.
It gives a basic + 1happy, forges amplify that to +2, and the Kurio Jeweller building will eventually bump that up to +3 happy and +10% raw commerce in each city.

Then there's the tile yield itself to consider.
It adds +2c raw. Mining gives it +1h +6c.
So a riverside ph gold mine = 3h/9c, unlocked very early.

This is also where the Kurios' strong map knowledge starts helping.
Gold clearly has limited availability on this map, I can only see one so far.

In short, any civ that starts with a source nearby will gain an advantage over their competitors.

Shall anything more be said?

Thanks, but it's not a done deal yet. =)

Selrahc is taking his time, seems to want a strong bargaining position before opening talks with Cull.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 93:

Haven’t had an event show up for quite a while, so one was well due:



Meh.
Free health for a little bit of unhappiness and potential pop loss is always good.
However I’ve already gone through and pointed out that the Kurio land is overflowing with health resources.
Additionally, the next 20 turns or so are going to be important: cottages are going to be built, happy caps will rise and need to be grown into.
I don’t need an unhappy penalty interfering with that.
So I declined, took 10 turns happy, not sure if I’ll get much use out of it.


Worker update:
Pigs finished by Bobby Moore.
Bob Marley started pasturing Avelorn’s Sheep.
Bobbin Threadbare moved 1E onto the ph above Caledor to road it.



Meanwhile Concepcion is exploring the coast to the South:



Found a Rice resource last turn, problem is, both Rice resources in the picture are jungled, which requires BW in FFH2 to chop, and I’m not sure how soon I intend to get that particular tech.
Either way, the South is just not looking good for a fourth city.


An interesting benefit to getting Sareln’s maps, is I can now see his old capital site.
Check out all the roading there, and compare to Selrahc who roaded the Wheat at Jingle Bells this turn.



There’s no real reason for Sareln to be placing that much road, the forests on the hills combined with Elf two movement in trees should have provided all the mobility necessary. A single line through the rice to connect the cities was all he needed imo.

Additionally, 2E of Thariss offscreen, there’s a pastured Sheep, which I assume is the reason why Sareln went for AH early on.
Slight mistake I’d suggest, when the flood plains SW of Thariss is still unfarmed (assuming it wasn’t pillaged by Selrahc).
Animal food resources are much weaker in FFH2, which you need to keep in mind when going AH early.
Pastured ph sheep = 3f/2h/1c, Farmed fp (even without Agrarianism) = 4f/1c.
Plenty of forested hills around for production.

That’s also why the two spread out jungled Rice and pl cow make my fourth city selection look grim.


Demographics:

• I gained 18 points cultural score, next turn Legends comes in.
  
• Selrahc gained 25 points. Iskender gained 28 points.
  Sounds cultural.
  
• Rival Best Pop decreased by 27k.
  Selrahc’s captured city Thariss went from size 4->3, not entirely sure why, I’d guess war weariness combining to starve the city?
  

So that means Selrahc actually gained more than 25 points, 31ish.
It’s not his second city, Jingle Bells, expanding its borders (that city still has 0 culture).
However his capital Silent Night did expand to its third ring on T73.
So that’s explainable.

Iskender.
Hmm, let’s go via pop figures again.
T93 Riv Av pop = 231k. T92 Riv Av pop = 223.4k
Change = (7.6k x 5) + 27k (Selrahc pop loss) = 65k.
Fits nicely with capital growing size 5->6 plus third city growing size 1->2.
So two pop increases, therefore unexplained score change ~ 16 points.
Unlike Selrahc though, the remainder can’t be capital culture related (Stasis), and T73 is still too early for the second city founded on T68 to have expanded its borders. The only things I can mark this down to are an 11 point tech and rounding errors, or some kind of event which gave him a free monument/culture earlier on in the game.
Again, sticking with the simple for the moment, I'm going with tech. It's about the right time and fits with the bulb theory on the previous turn.
Which tech? Heaven knows.
Iskender continues to confuse me.


Diplo:

Quick note to Selrahc:

In other news the Kuriotates held a belated Grand Ceremony for the opening of their section of the Stelvio Pass.
Free centaur rides and WhatWouldKilmorphDo wristbands were distributed.
More quietly, coyote runners have been hired and escape tunnels dug to help free the poor, oppressed slaves in the Jingle Bell Ice mines.

Updated.

[pocketbeetle]

Tech Path:

Recapping the tech aims since this old post and this even older post, the soon to be completed Education pretty much brings to an end the early technology race.
The only two techs missing from the list are Hunting and HBR.
Overall, I’d say the Kuriotates are in pretty good shape at the moment, being #1 in most demographics and having founded 3 religions.
So where are we going from here?

A list of the next group of desirable techs:

• Hunting (495b).
  Still need it, there’s still land to explore, cities to find, and I have a Deer and Furs resource in my land that need to be used.
  
  
• Archery (323b) -> HBR (387b) -> Stirrups (862b).
  Stirrups enables Centaur Archers.
  I’ve already raved about them before, suffice to say: Kuriotates bread and butter unit, want.
  
  
• Drama (647b).
  Enables a couple of wonders, allows use of the culture slider, but really I’m only interested in this tech for the free GArtist. If I get it, he’ll be used pretty promptly for a Golden Age to really race ahead.
  I think it’s worth factoring in that it’s not a small tech and that the other players may be worried about me beating them to it, considering the religion spam and thread mouseover. Either way, I won’t be beelining straight for it.
  
  
• Philosophy (323b) -> Priesthood (862b).
  Philosophy allows the use of Incense in OO and Pagan temples for +1 happy each, it also enables the Bone Palace wonder.
  • Quick note on this wonder: it’s hugely expensive at 469h, prohibitively so imo.
    
    
  • Gives a free Golden Age, +2 GE points and 50% magic resistance to units in that city.
    
    
  • Marble allows double speed production, Selrahc has a source outside Gereth Minar (plus has the Philo tech).
    
    
  • Unlike the Drama GArt, I have no intention of competing for this – the Kurio strength is in its tech rate, not production.
    I’ve got way too many buildings on the essential list, and that’s not even accounting for my dire need of units, adding a concrete elephant wonder to the production queue would be foolhardy.
    
  
  Priesthood meanwhile, would allow me to build the RoK priests (Stonewardens) and start forcing RoK temples into settlements.
  Definitely a priority tech.
  
  
• Trade (484b).
  Enables Centaur Chargers, +1 trade routes per city, enables tech trading (this is a NTT game, so no trading but would let me track other players’ techs).
  
  
• Sailing (345b).
  Not so bothered about a Lighthouse in Kwythellar, or the GLH (402h, unchanged from base Civ4), but coastal trading with Cull and galleys/triremes would be nice. Would allow me to get the Whale luxury resource also.
  
  
• Masonry (150b) -> Construction (431b) -> Sanitation (690b).
  Sanitation provides +1f to Farms and the decent Public Baths building (+3 happy, -1 health).
  Along the way, would pick up Construction for chain-irrigation, bridge building, catapults and workshops.
  Construction is one of two essential techs to allow Avelorn to reach its potential.
  
  
• CoL (345b) -> Currency (970b).
  CoL is starting to look important for its -40% maintenance Courthouses. It has little other use to me.
  Currency meanwhile gives +1 trade routes, allows gold trading and the Moneychanger (+25% gold, double speed with Financial).
  Most importantly, it allows the priority wonder, Guild of the Nine (335h).
  
  
• KotE (387b) -> Divination (690b).
  Necessary for building adepts, improving mana nodes, and starting the Tower of Divination national wonder (536h).
  
  
• Writing (409b).
  Libraries +25% science as usual.
  TGL in FFH2 requires 3 libraries, gives +1 free sci spec, all sci specs and settled GScis give +1b extra. Cheap at 234h, doubled by marble.
  Need to be careful about Selrahc getting this.
  TGL would have been a priority wonder if I had failed to land RoK and ended stuck with OO only (temple only allows sci spec and a priest spec, ie settlements would have been running 1 sci spec).
  
  
• Bronze Working (431b) -> Warfare (345b).
  BW as mentioned is needed to get chopping that jungle.
  Warfare is much more important, enabling the Conquest civic, which I can then use at Avelorn to turn food surplus into hammers for production of units.
  Warfare also gives the National Epic (167h, marble doubler), and the world wonder Form of the Titan (335h, doubled with copper, +2xp to all units built).
  
  
• Military Strategy (517b).
  Prereqs of Warfare and Philo, necessary for Heroic Epic (134, marble double) and first player to discover gets a free GC.
  

Long list huh?
And that’s not even including the religious follow-on techs of Arete and Mind Stapling for RoK and OO respectively.

To try and make some kind of sense, let’s prioritise.

• First off, Drama, Trade, Sailing and maybe KotE/Divination are all lower priorities.
  I can live for a while without them, but should look to slot them in, as and when the situation requires.
  
  
• Secondly, I think the most important thing for me to realise now is I’m doing good, and I need to avoid getting greedy.
  Trying to maximise my GNP/food/hammers now without building up my power would be a mistake. I’m about to land the Giants, but they won’t keep the bad people away forever. So I need a military solution, and soon.
  That means Stirrups, namely Hunting -> Archery -> HBR -> Stirrups.
  Hunting is not necessary to go Archery as I’ve already got one of its prerequisites in Mining. But considering this a NTT and I want the tech, it makes sense to take the 1.4x modifier into Archery.
  
  
• Thirdly, Writing.
  The Stirrups path is going to cost 2k beakers, it would be nice to research the 400b Writing tech first and get the extra modifier from libraries, but I’m pretty sure that my cities will be busy building other stuff at the time.
  
  
• Fourthly, Priesthood.
  Hopefully I should have a few settlements by then. Building RoK temples in them will keep me teching.
  
  
• Fifthly, Construction and Warfare.
  Necessary to get Avelorn going properly, chain farms all over plus food -> hammers will give me a second emergency military pump.
  Sanitation is gravy on top.
  

I’ve gone long enough with no appreciable military.
The Giants will hopefully tide me over until Stirrups comes in, at which point Kwythellar starts producing a Centaur Archer every two turns.
Faster when the Heroic Epic finally gets built.


Tech path:

Hunting -> Archery -> HBR -> Stirrups -> Writing -> (Drama?) -> Philosophy -> Priesthood -> Masonry -> Construction -> BW -> Warfare -> Sanitation -> Military Strategy.

Insert CoL, Currency, Trade, Sailing, Arete, Mind Stapling, KotE, Divination where appropriate.
As always, subject to change.

[pocketbeetle]

How dare Bob bump his poxy thread above mine!

Updated!

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 94:

By total coincidence, the event we were all talking about a while ago greets me on loading.



Tough call.
Free GArt is a big YES, even if I’m not going culture.
But that means I have to take a +5 unhappy penalty in Caledor, and if you remember from last turn, I rejected the health event on the basis of not wanting to take pop losses/happiness penalties.

If it had been Avelorn it would have been an instant yes (just set it to worker/settlers and leave).
If it had been Kwythellar it would have been an instant no (too much to build).
Caledor…was a yes.

Caspian Loch was born, and in other news Selrahc made peace with Cull.




I’m looking at 30 turns of unhappiness at Caledor, decreasing by 1 every 6 turns.
Rejecting the health event last turn is looking really smart now, as it means only 4 unhappy citizens in the city.
I intend to decrease that to 1 unhappy citizen pretty damn soon.


Meanwhile Concepcion came across the Hippus borders.
Hopefully will get contact next turn.



Worker-wise, Bob-A-Long completed the Sheep pasture just in time (or food would have been tight in Caledor).
Bobbo put in a turn of roading on the mana node W of Caledor.
Bobby Moore started roading the Pigs at Avelorn, Bob Marley completes the Sheep pasture next turn.

Clicking end turn brought in Education.
Time to take a breather, then on to Hunting.




Demographics:

• First off, the Kurio score jumped by 144 this turn.
  128 of which was cultural score thanks to Legends.
  No staying below the radar now!
  
• Bob gained score for +1 pop.
  Rival Best pop increased without Selrahc’s score changing, which means Bob overtook Selrahc as Rival Best.
  The size of the jump (20k+) suggests either his capital or second city, Nubia, grew.
  His capital has remained at size 7, so I’d say Nubia is now size 5.
  
• Sareln gained 11 points for a tech.
  I may try counting his GNP exactly later, but for now I’m simply putting a cap of 300 beakers (19 turns x ~15).
  Which means it could be: Crafting, Education, Calendar, Cartography, (Fishing).

[pocketbeetle]

Not to be overlooked, the Kurios completed the Pact of the Nilhorn also. =)



They start with Hidden Nationality, which as already covered, means other civs see them as Barbarian units.
The orange ‘man shouting’ button is the ability to Declare Nationality, and no longer be Hidden.
Some units can repeatedly Hide/Declare, but for these units the action is irreversible.
I don’t intend to use it any time soon.

None of the players are going to be fooled by three barbarian Hill Giants suddenly appearing on their borders, so I’m definitely not setting out to perform any trickery. But for now at least, there are very few reasons to not stay Hidden Nationality.

They’ll be joining Vanilla Ice in the South to pick up some xp, probably by popping a lair.
I might leave one Giant lingering on the border with the Illians for a couple of turns, just to drive the point home.


Here’s the ingame description for the project:

[indent]Early explorers found it was best to avoid the massive giants that roamed the land.
A bard, named Antonis of Oriel, wandered too close and was captured by a group called the Nilhorn. He offered the only gift he could for his life, he played a song. The wild giants were so entranced by his song that, when it ended, they sat unmoving and Antonis could have simply walked out of the makeshift camp they had dragged him back to. Fascinated by finding his new audience so appreciative, Antonis continued to play, and his performances became a part of the giants' nightly rituals.[/indent]
[indent]Antonis stayed with the Nilhorn for three years, until one of them reported seeing a Sheaim army approaching his homeland. The giants avoided any settled land and tried to convince Antonis not to return, but he left the giants and returned to defend Oriel.
Although a talented musician, Antonis was an incompetent warrior and he was killed defending Oriel. When he fell, the Nilhorn came out of the forests and approached the besieged village. Both armies froze, unaccustomed to seeing giants willing to enter civilized lands. Searching the battlefield, the giants found Antonis's body, and, enraged, they set upon the Sheaim. The village defenders cheered at their new-found allies and joined in the assault.[/indent]
[indent]The battle was quick and the Sheaim were turned back. After it was over, the giants picked up the body of Antonis and carried it with them into the forests. The village raised a monument to their large rescuers and swore never to forget the aid they were given. The Sheaim never forgot the failed battle either, and forever avoided Oriel in their attacks. [/indent]

[v8mark]

Veez: awesome!

Ahahahaha....


Please, Selrahc...

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 95:

Education splashscreen on loading, time to spam some cottages.



It’s also time for the GC vs GSci showdown.

Clicking end turn gave…



A GSci. :hat:
She’ll make her way over to Caledor, for a nice second Academy in my future capital.

Worker-wise,
West of Caledor, Bobbo moved 1N and started cottaging.
North of Caledor, Bob-A-Long completed the road for Bobbin to run across and onto the next plains hill.
North of Avelorn, Bob Marley completed the Sheep pasture.
While in the South, Bobby Moore finished roading the Pigs, will move 1S to mine the forested gl hill next.

Research was shut down to collect taxes, Kwythellar worked the minimum amount of hammers necessary to produce a 1t workboat for the Clams.
All other tiles worked food/commerce such as the 3f/3c oasis and 2f/3c lake.
The +50% capital gold property from God-King makes it worthwhile for me to go heavy commerce in Kwythellar.

More importantly, I switched Caledor’s production over to a worker, also worked the two silks rather than the gl farm and ph mine.
I should have done the production switch last turn: angry citizens don’t consume food while building workers/settlers, so instead of putting 2 hammers towards the Deruptus Brewery this turn, I put 2 + (4 angry x 2 food) = 10 hammers towards a worker.
Can't remember if this is the case in base Civ4 or not?


Meanwhile Concepcion made contact with the Hippus this turn:



So that called for a Diplo greeting.
I want good relations with Iskender, now that Cull has been nobbled he’s the only one of Bob's neighbours that can compete for the Southern land.
I’m going to be hampered by my demographics and score, but let’s see if my good looks and charm can win him over. :rolleyes:

While out on routine patrol yesterday with your men, you crest a hill and catch glimpse of something...unusual.

A boat is weaving its way unsteadily along the coast, onboard a party is clearly in full swing.
Swarming over the deck and hanging from the mast, its crew of Ratmen all seem to be in various stages of intoxication.

Seeing your party, some of them start waving and calling, several of them pointing to a large Ratman at the helm.
With an air of command and a large black hat positioned rakishly askew, this one would appear to be the leader.
And he's looking directly at you, holding something up in his paw.

Fishing out a pair of binoculars, you focus in on the object in his paw. But...there's nothing there.
Only its paw and one digit held upright.
Its middle digit.
The damn thing is giving you the bird!

The Ratman realises you've seen and starts laughing evilly.
Reaching aside, he picks up something clear from the deck and heaves it into the water towards the coast.
Minutes later the boat passes passes behind an outcropping and becomes lost from view.

Ordering your men to follow, you make your way down to the rocky beach and organise search parties.
Your second in command finds it: a midsize green bottle, corked but empty of its original contents.
All that remains in there now is a piece of paper.
On it is written:

"Hi Iskender =)"

(And no, Mr. Keown is not going to be allowed anywhere near him!)


Selrahc has renamed his cities:

Thariss -> Chestnut Roast, Gereth Minar -> Twelve Days.


Demographics:

• Sareln gained a pop point to reach size 3.
  
  
• Bob gained 22 points for a tech.
  

Revisiting Bob’s little CoL escapade.
Bob:
Average GNP = 33-31 ie ~32 ie 30 research
9 * 30 = 270 beakers
75b more for CoL (345b).
Maintenance therefore would have to be ~8/t. (9 turns * 8 = 72b)
I should factor in one or two turns of 0% science for his next tech, he’ll need to take a pause.

Bob:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T83 -> Assigned CoL
Next turn he researched a tech: T94
Therefore gap = 11 turns – 1 turn of anarchy = 10 turns.
GNP during period: T84: Anarchy // T85-87: 46 // T88: 49 // T89: 44 // 90-94: 53
Average: 49.6 ie research 47.6
Additional +8 from maintenance = 55.6, take off 2 turns for gold gathering.
8 * 55.6 = 445b

Hunting at 495b, can be excluded because it’s not a 22 point tech.
Check population demographics to confirm it’s not an 11 point tech + 2 pop increases? Check.

Interestingly, Bob not having Mysticism still allows me to narrow the field down considerably. Since I don’t have to worry about him teching KotE (387b), Philo (323b) or Way of the Earthmother (430b), the only techs left are Archery (323b), Writing (409b) and Bronze Working (431b).
I’m going to exclude Archery for being too low in beakers, which means Writing or BW.
It also means I’m now overestimating Bob’s maintenance costs or underestimating how long he gathered gold for.

Let’s see if we can estimate what slider he’s running at.
Take the full 10 turns, and the 47.6 GNP average. We know he hasn’t got any beaker multiplier buildings or Sage Councils yet, which makes it easier.
420 (Av b cost BW vs Writing) / 10 = 42, 42 / 47.6 = 0.88 ie Bob is running around 90% slider?

If we assume that’s break-even/small positive, that implies his maintenance costs are around -6 gp/t. Does that make sense? Unfortunately yes.
Aristocracy gives -40% maintenance costs due to distance (the main thing that’s hurting Selrahc and I) plus Bob is almost certainly throwing down Governor’s Mansions for an additional -20% maintenance decrease.

Which tech is it?
If it was BW, the rival soldier count should jump, as that tech enables a new military unit – for Bob that’s the Moroi.
It does increase between T94 and T95, from 40.4k to 42.6k, but does that convince me? Hell no.

I think it comes down to how scared of Selrahc’s Priests he is.
If he’s worried, he’ll have gone BW, if he’s not, it’ll be Writing to get libraries and his first GSci asap.

Considering I know Selrahc gave Bob a full blown NAP, I’m leaning towards Writing.