WW27 Game Thread: Once there were 12

[novice]

Did you jail anybody on night 1, Azarius?

[Azarius]

Is it Groundhog Day? Am I cursed to be hit by unsubstantiated Novice-Zak attacks every morning from hereon out?

I agree that Novice seemed an obvious target, maybe Jkaen in a pinch or if Novice is bad. As far as I can tell, the no-kill has pushed the wolves timetable out another day, so regardless of who is on what team I presume that this was not the wolves plan. I'll be very interested to see if more comes out about that later in the day.

Novice, you didn't answer my question about Zak, who has just jumped onto your coat-tails again. Also, what exactly is your case against me, other than that I misread MJW and so was pushing for my suspects over him? Re-posting one of my posts without comment, and saying 'Gazglum is my top suspect' does not a case make.

Azarius, if you agreed with me that Mattimeo was the best lynch, why are you voting for me now?

Gazglum, two reasons. Mainly, given some of your statements after the day 2 lynch, I was interested in how you would react to a vote from me. I didn't add any reasoning behind it, just threw it up there. Your response seems to have been to go full on attack mode. Also, since I am trusting that Novice is town, I am more than happy to follow his lead on you.

[Azarius]

Did you jail anybody on night 1, Azarius?

No.

[Azarius]

Jowy, why do you think MJW didn't have much longevity? And regardless of why you think so, Gazglum looks very scummy for parroting that idea.

MJW was a leading candidate for the noose Day 1, and then hadn't changed his behaviour Day 2. Q and Jkaen had been on him Day 2. Serdoa had attacked him. If we had mislynched another candidate Day 2, then one of the alternative theories to MJW would have been shot and he would be one the most popular suspects left alive. I can imagine MJW skating past another day or so, but I really can't see that he could have made it all the way - especially if he was still around at LyLo.

I'm not trying to excuse my not voting him by saying I would totally have got him later, if that's what you're implying. I just don't think he would have got to the finish line, and that means I think it is premature to automatically assume that at least one of the scum wouldn't be willing to join a bus brigade for town points.

But speaking of parroting, looking back through the days, I've noticed Azarius following in my footsteps a fair bit.

> Jowy says 'should one vote for the lesser of two evils?
> Glum

If you're on at deadline then yes, you should vote for the lesser of two evils. BEcause even if you're right about your target (Zak) being a wolf, one of the two players on the block might be as well. And if it is a wolf vs villager contest, and you're abstaining by voting Zak, then you're making it easier for the wolves to make sure their man doesn't hang. There's nothing to stop you saying, "Zak is my first preference, but for the purpose of this lynch I'll vote X".

> Azarius

Jowy… You say you aren't sure if you should vote for the lesser of two evils, instead of someone you yourself suspect. Certainly throughout the day vote your suspicions, I'm not saying you should blindly follow others. But at the end of the day, if you are voting somewhere it is impossible to matter, it is suspect to me. Leaving your vote on as the sole vote on someone going into a lynch makes it easier to hide if you are scum, and you can just say "it is who I suspect".

On posting style:

> Glum

I'm back, and I'm unimpressed by what I've seen from Jowy overnight. It's harder to get a baseline on him, because he mixes up his styles game to game. But two aspects of his village play as nogrammarJowy and Muriel were consistent: he was at or near the top in post-count, and he commented on everybody. In his first game I remember him making some complete ordered suspect lists, and he made incisive comments on several people including pegging me as a wolf from the start.

> Azarius

Gazglum raises a good point on Jowy's prolific posting from earlier games. Last game at times it felt as is half of what I read was from Muriel, he seemed to comment on almost everything. Definitely more subdued posting this game from him. I don't necessarily think by itself this is damning, but it does add to my general suspicion of him.

On Yes-Man Zak:

> Glum

Zak -...my main issue is that he is following Novice a lot, rather than starting his own attacks. If he's still alive Day 4, I might start throwing a few sceptical third world child looks his way. But no real scum tells at the moment.

> Glum

While you're on, I'd like to ask you about Zak. Basicalyl every move you've made this game, he's come in straight behind you and parroted it. Often without even providing any reasoning at the time. I'm not rereading now, but I think he copied you on the possibility of lynching Serdoa, on voting me start of Day 2, on pressuring Jowy, and finally on switching votes to MJW at the end of the day. If Zak is scum looking to play a long game, I think he would be willing to bus MJW, and do it early enough to get town credit. After all, it wasn't likely MJW was going to last that many more days as it is.

> Azarius

Any particular reason why you're just following Novice? There are certainly worse choices to follow this game, but you seem to have spent quite a bit of time on his coattails.

Finally, Mattimeo, looking back through I don't think you're scum anymore. MJW's behaviour towards you doesn't make sense to me if you were. So...sorry and stuff, I guess?

This line of attack is weak. Two of Gazglum's examples were things that there was quite a bit of discussion on. Both of us commenting on them is hardly surprising. In his example regarding my comment on Jowy's posting style, I say he raises a good point and that I agree with it. Saying you agree with someone is hardly the same as trying to pass of their argument as your own. I think he knew pressure was headed his way today, and was lining up possible targets for today with his posts last night. He needed a target of opportunity and has to try to make something fit. Also, would Gazglum, or anyone else if they understood it, please explain what this post is referring to?

Hah, rhetorical question alert. I guess if Mattimeo wants to hoist me on my petard for a while, I can't complain.

[zakalwe]

Unvote

[novice]

Also, would Gazglum, or anyone else if they understood it, please explain what this post is referring to?

Hah, rhetorical question alert. I guess if Mattimeo wants to hoist me on my petard for a while, I can't complain.

Gaz explained it already, he's referring to himself attacking Mattimeo on day 1 for using rhetorical questions, and now Gaz realized he used them himself.

Random question:

Gazglum, you can rest assured that I would be gunning hard for three consecutive mislynches if I were scum with MJW on my team.

Why?

[Azarius]

Well, its not a huge pile of evidence and maybe was a waste of time. But I can see Jkaen as a scumbuddy with MJW, there was a lot of talking between them, but Jkaen was a bit wishy-washy: defending MJW's hypocrisy early on, then seeming to use it as a reason to vote him on Day 2. His MJW vote seems like a pressure vote to make MJw give more info, but when MJW does exactly that Jkaen stays on him through the vote. Maybe Jkaen was caught on him and felt like he couldn't switch after Zak and Novice joined him.

I still think Azarius looks somewhat bad for calling the attack on Mattimeo day 1 'weak', but going on to vote him all through Day 2.

Jkaen also avoids giving any opinion on Azarius as far as I can see, so I would like to get that from him today.

My top suspects are probably Azarius > Jkaen > Zak > Jowy at the moment. I can see people's logic about Azza, but he's just felt townish to me.

I called the day one case on him weak because it was weak. My vote on him to start day 2 was to try to make him engage more with the village. Then he makes this post.

...and apparently I fail at quoting

intended post:

Well, everything is finally working...

I think we have to kill Mattimeo today if he does'nt begin to post crap

Well, I was going to post something useful, but I guess I'll have to restrict myself to 'crap' now

The people who are don't like are the pack of lurkers (including Mattimeo) and Zak.

And I finally get a mention as part of the lurker pack? I thought you'd forgotten about me all of the last day, talking about policy lynching people who'd posted more than I had for lurking...

Well losing 2 key power roles this early sucks pretty badly, interseting they went for Serdoa.

Interesting? What are the other targets? novice, I suppose. zak would be similarly high priority, but I'd also think he'd actually be easier to lynch than Serdoa given this D1. The rest of us? Maybe Gazglum would also be worth a kill in a vacuum. Or MJW if you think removing the annoyance is worth also removing the distraction. The rest of us you need a reason, and you don't generally have one N1.

I’ve said a lot of times that I don’t think scum are the ones talking wild theories or super lurking on Day 1, they’re more likely to play like Mattimeo, Serdoa or Novice were – chiming in without rocking the boat. You may disagree with that, but I have form arguing that in previous games.

quoted in the same post:

That's pretty much one of the worst posts I've read so far in this game (together with Jkaens). Gazglum completely ignores what several people have listed as reason to vote for MJW, which is exactly that his behaviour in this game is NOT similar to his normal behaviour. Now I don't say he has to agree with that assessment. But not arguing that point, not even mentioning it, is scummy. It might very well be that MJW is a villager, but Gazglums defense here reads more like a wolf finding an easy point to make, hoping to earn village brownie points.

Direct attacks like that aren't 'rocking the boat' now?

For someone unlikely to be on at the deadline, it seemed like a clear self-defense vote disguised as scum hunting.

...there was an attempt to make it look anything like scum-hunting?
Certainly wasn't any attempt to pretend I was scum hunting D1. More putting my vote where it would do the least harm, given a need to actually put it somewhere. I seem to recall already spelling that out in justification, too.

What really stood out to me was him saying that he wasn't trying to scumhunt, and was just parking his vote somewhere. I pointed this out here.

Mattimeo quote:

...and apparently I fail at quoting

intended post:

Well, everything is finally working...

I think we have to kill Mattimeo today if he does'nt begin to post crap

Well, I was going to post something useful, but I guess I'll have to restrict myself to 'crap' now

The people who are don't like are the pack of lurkers (including Mattimeo) and Zak.

And I finally get a mention as part of the lurker pack? I thought you'd forgotten about me all of the last day, talking about policy lynching people who'd posted more than I had for lurking...

Well losing 2 key power roles this early sucks pretty badly, interseting they went for Serdoa.

Interesting? What are the other targets? novice, I suppose. zak would be similarly high priority, but I'd also think he'd actually be easier to lynch than Serdoa given this D1. The rest of us? Maybe Gazglum would also be worth a kill in a vacuum. Or MJW if you think removing the annoyance is worth also removing the distraction. The rest of us you need a reason, and you don't generally have one N1.

I’ve said a lot of times that I don’t think scum are the ones talking wild theories or super lurking on Day 1, they’re more likely to play like Mattimeo, Serdoa or Novice were – chiming in without rocking the boat. You may disagree with that, but I have form arguing that in previous games.

quoted in the same post:

That's pretty much one of the worst posts I've read so far in this game (together with Jkaens). Gazglum completely ignores what several people have listed as reason to vote for MJW, which is exactly that his behaviour in this game is NOT similar to his normal behaviour. Now I don't say he has to agree with that assessment. But not arguing that point, not even mentioning it, is scummy. It might very well be that MJW is a villager, but Gazglums defense here reads more like a wolf finding an easy point to make, hoping to earn village brownie points.

Direct attacks like that aren't 'rocking the boat' now?

For someone unlikely to be on at the deadline, it seemed like a clear self-defense vote disguised as scum hunting.

...there was an attempt to make it look anything like scum-hunting?
Certainly wasn't any attempt to pretend I was scum hunting D1. More putting my vote where it would do the least harm, given a need to actually put it somewhere. I seem to recall already spelling that out in justification, too.

The bolded part of this I very much dislike. It certainly makes me feel better about leaving my vote where it is.

In response to this, he posts this.

Mattimeo:
Crap really means stuff.

Wait, really? I... I had no idea...

Hmm, I was hoping to save red for if a scum ever dies, but I can find a better blue, like the one we used for mayor votes.

Strange post by the mod at #167 say "if a sucm ever dies". I don't think anyone is bound to be lynched so this post only proves that a wolf was not caught by a watcher or something like that.

The mod would say something like "when a wolf dies" or "the color for wolfs" if he knew a wolf was doomed. For example a watcher catching a wolf killing Serdoa would do it. Even if the wolf somehow escapes the first day he's screwed when the watcher's role flips. He would not say "if a wolf EVER dies".

If a wolf got busted then I would eat my hat if the mod used "EVER". That makes no sense if he knows a wolf is going down. Period.

In what possible way would it make any sense for a mod to deliberately give away a scan result like that? You are stretching your horrific logic even further than usual. Why?
On the plus side, I suppose it's a good tell - if I ever understand a point you're trying to make, or worse yet, agree with one, then I'll know something's gone drastically wrong and you're probably scum...

Mattimeo quote:[spoiler]

For someone unlikely to be on at the deadline, it seemed like a clear self-defense vote disguised as scum hunting.

...there was an attempt to make it look anything like scum-hunting?
Certainly wasn't any attempt to pretend I was scum hunting D1. More putting my vote where it would do the least harm, given a need to actually put it somewhere. I seem to recall already spelling that out in justification, too.

The bolded part of this I very much dislike. It certainly makes me feel better about leaving my vote where it is.

Was wondering how long it would take someone to point that out. Any particular reason why Azza got you to field it, rather than continuing the cross-examination himself?

He acknowledges my comment, doesn't even try to explain it, and implies that Azza got me to ask it for him. In my post here

Gazglum raises a good point on Jowy's prolific posting from earlier games. Last game at times it felt as is half of what I read was from Muriel, he seemed to comment on almost everything. Definitely more subdued posting this game from him. I don't necessarily think by itself this is damning, but it does add to my general suspicion of him.

That being said, I have a hard time moving my vote from Mattimeo given his last two posts. He took time out to comment, but doesn't really say anything of substance. He makes a snarky comment at MJW, then pokes at his mod slip theory. Then he acknowledges the comment I made on him saying he wasn't scum hunting day one and was just parking his vote, but instead of actually addressing the point he just muses on why I said something instead of Azza. implying that Azza got me to field it instead of doing so himself. He then makes another post saying that he doesn't have time to comment now, but he may tomorrow. For someone short of time, he sure accomplished almost nothing with what time he does have. On days when I was short of time for this last game, I tried to use what time I did have to address important questions and get across my views on things as best I could. All he seems to be doing here is checking in like it's an obligation to appear active.

which you certainly must have read at least once since you quote from it in your "parroting" attack on me, I explain why I am still voting for Mattimeo at that time. I have a hard time believing that you actually don't understand why I was voting for Mattimeo on day 2.

[Gazglum]

Well...that takes the wind out of my sails. Unless someone counterclaims. I was kind of expecting a jailer, I just really wasn't expecting it to be you.

I'll go back to Jowy, for now, for being generally scummy yesterday and bringing MJW up to 5 versus Mattimeo's 3 only when it seemed locked in at 4v3. Then talking up how he made 'the hard choice' and saying how he doubted a sacrifice was made on MJW.

[Gazglum]

And I know I put Jkaen and Zak up above Jowy before, but I was thinking of Azarian scumbuddies. Now I'm back to square one.

[Gazglum]

Jowy - town. With thanks whoever had his back last night.

I don't understand what this comment means, Mattimeo.