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**SevenSpirits** · August 8th, 2011, 01:15

The scientist makes the 10th great person that has been born in Barad-dur - an average of one per 11.1 turns all game long.

toast

Here's the rundown.

1) Prophet (settle)
2) Prophet (settle)
3) Scientist (academy)
4) Scientist (GA)
5) Artist (save for bomb)
6) Prophet (save for GA 2)
7) Engineer (sell for 800g)
8) Scientist (bulb Education)
9) Engineer (GA 2 with prophet)
10) Scientist (save for GA 3?)

**SevenSpirits** · August 8th, 2011, 16:43

Played 111 - I wonder if we can get in multiple turns today.

Steam Power came in at EOT, and we have coal under windmills in Moria and Grey Havens. For now, that's simply +1 hammer. I don't think we need to mine them yet - the 1/1/1 windmills are probably better than the 0/3/0 mines that coal gets, certainly so in a golden age.

Steam Power also means we get to build Levees. These will be awesome in Barad-dur, Edoras, and Orthanc. Later also Westemnet. I don't think Moria needs one.

Thirdly, it speeds up worker labor. IIRC this means 1 turn roads. So if we want to windmill an unroaded hill, we should send up one worker - he roads next turn, and then more workers come on and build the windmill.

Moria finally popped its borders - need to turn the governor back on there so we work the fish that's now available.

We've been building quite a few work boats and missionaries to get all our new cities running well. I think next turn all the necessary workboats will finally be done. Still need 4 more missionaries though - that's tougher since we are constantly running against the cap of 3.

For next turn:

1) Tech Drama (on the way to Lib... want to be prepared to grab Communism's spy)
2) Governor on in Moria
3) Micro BD - get the plains hamlet back from Khand and work it over a merchant so the University finishes.
4) Make sure we build the corn farm for Falls of Rauros.
5) Still no whipping since we're in a golden age for another turn.

**SevenSpirits** · August 8th, 2011, 20:41

There has been diplo btw.

With Yuri:

With Commodore:

Subject: Quick Question Wrote:Hey RL7,

Just a quick scouting question for you guys, although not in the pre-invasion sense of the word; would you guys mind telling me where my coal is in a couple of turns? I have this sinking feeling it's under one of my windmills. As I'll probably be going for scientific method first, I can of course return the favor regarding your oil.

Thanks,
-Commodore

Since I wanted to arrange that we teched Communism first instead of him, I waited to catch him on chat. But in fact he found me on chat before I found him:

Quote:1:41 PM Commodore: Salut.
me: hola
how's it going?
Commodore: Your Malians learning French and all.
1:42 PM It's going pretty good.
This Ranamar or Seven?
me: seven
1:43 PM Commodore: Cool. Well, as I told Ranamar, a couple turns back I told GES our NAP is going on cooldown.
me: aha
Commodore: So when you see my cats wandering up through your lands...
1:44 PM I don't think he's going to attack me and I'm not sure if I'm about to hit him, but it's best to be safe.
me: I was indeed wondering about those. seemed kind of a funny exploration force
1:45 PM Commodore: Get with the times, all the cool kids explore with siege nowadays.
me:
1:46 PM so hey, I've actually been thinking we will pop scientific method sooner rather than later
kinda have to if we want to use our scientist bulb
I talked to you earlier about the physics scientist and communism spy - are you wanting to get those soon?
Commodore: Yeah, the spy in particular.
1:47 PM I'm awash in scientist GPP, next two will mostly likely be scientists.
me: aha. and you want variety for a golden age?
Commodore: Right
me: dang, we really want the spy too
1:48 PM Commodore: Roulette wheel not popping 'em out randomly enough?
me: haha
well it's the least likely on our roulette wheel, so same reason as you, really
1:49 PM but also, state property will be really good for us because we haven't built any courthouses
lol
Commodore: Whoa, none?
me: we captured 1
er, 2
Commodore: That's why my EP spending seemed so harsh.
me: but don't have code of laws even!
Commodore: I hadn't pushed you guys up there at all.
1:50 PM me: yeah
we lost MNG's graphs by the end, heh
and have had graph problems with yuris too
1:51 PM how soon were you planning to get scimeth? (I want to figure out a fair deal, not race you)
Commodore: Well, rifling is done in two.
1:52 PM After that I was either going sci meth directly or detouring Chemistry/Steel
me: ah
us similarly, prety much, except insert steam power in place of rifling and we already have chemistry
1:53 PM Commodore: That's all assuming our friendly neighborhood steam engineers can tell us about coal.
me: oh sure (but how does that matter?)
Commodore: I just windmilled a desert hill and went "crap, Gaspar might have seeded it here".
Oh, it's not a big deal.
me: well, hvaing to mine it later isn't terrible
1:54 PM you'll have workers sitting around I'm sure
Commodore: Yeah, mostly, I'm thinking about how much I want ironclads for Luddite's frigates.
me: mm, that's a handy though
thought
Commodore: Heh, actually, a lot of my workers are heading towards France.
1:55 PM me: ironclads are surprisingly useful on this map actually
ours too
Commodore: Someone seems to have wiped away all those farms and pastures.
me: yeah
1:56 PM you have enough workers you think?
Commodore: Yeah, I have enough.
It's just a matter of shifting them.
me: sure
Commodore: Go-go gadget galley!
me: that's part of why we went steam power
other reason being that levees are really good
Commodore: Oh, that's a sweet thought.
1:57 PM Man, I could use 50% faster workers.
me: you could build hagia sophia
Commodore: Hah!
me: we are not, in fact, planning to finish that wonder on the same turn as steam power
1:58 PM Commodore: Nicely parsed sentence
You finish it a turn before?

me: haha
I mean I think we get steam power next turn
and no we haven't built HS yet
1:59 PM Commodore: Heh
Hagia is in the "nice but not worth the hammers" category most of the time.
me: yeah
2:00 PM by the time you can afford it you've hopefully managed to get enough workers and improvements
Commodore: Right
Ach weel.
2:01 PM So, your odd tech tree going to get odder?
me: odd how? you think we need LAWS? :D
Commodore: You planning on having SAM infantry before rifles?
2:02 PM Democracy before a code of laws?
me: hehe
those things are impossible!
Commodore: Oh! Random thought.
me: yeah?
Commodore: What the heck is less than 30 degrees in latitude on a toriod?
2:03 PM me: I'm not sure
wouldn't be surprised though if everything counted as equatorial'
Commodore: Well heck, it might.
2:04 PM I somehow doubt this game will advance that far, but if it does, that might be kinda screwy.
me: yeah, hehe
2:05 PM so can I interest you in your previously mentioned possible path through corporation/assembly line? (rather than sci meth)
Commodore: Man, chat has a purile sense of humor.
me: it seems really good for you, and then we wouldn't have to race for anything'
how so?
ah
right
2:06 PM Commodore: Well, if you guys could let me know where coal/oil/uranium is, I could delay a bit for earlier factories.
me: sure thing
2:07 PM Commodore: Sigh. "Through ass embly lines"
me: lol
2:08 PM Commodore: I'll probably still for for canon first though.
me: yeah, cannons are so good
Commodore: If Yuri doesn't go splat, that'd give me some options.
me: also drydocks aren't bad...
you think he will go splat?
Commodore: Yeah, drydocks are nice.
2:09 PM Eh
A bit less splat, a bit more "brutal slog after initial surprise"
me: yeah
for sure
Commodore: Which, as us is the best outcome.
me: though GES really is running a skeleton defense right now, literally one warrior everywhere
2:10 PM Commodore: Yeah, I know he can swap fast.
me: yes
Commodore: But it's small, only 3 drafts per turn.
me: and you kind of have to defend everywhere...
Commodore: And anything that isn't a nice shiny rifle gets kilt by Jans.
Right, not a fun situation.
2:11 PM me: yeah
Commodore: If opportunity knocks, I'll collect.
me: biggest problem for him is I don't think he can get a boat defense out
Commodore: But I suspect its going to be a slugging match.
me: frigates are at least 6 techs away, compass optics astro contruction engineering chemistry
Commodore: Right, which is a reason to go hell-for-leather for ironclads here.
2:12 PM me: right
Commodore: Sure, my seafarers still have no idea what a compass is, but they're encased in steel.
me: lol
2:13 PM ironclads need steam power too, another nudge for going up to assembly line
2:14 PM Commodore: Yeah, I'm heading there next if you can snipe the GP from Egypt.
I know that'll hurt to lose those wonders, but airships are the bomb.
2:15 PM me: ye4ah
we'll also lose a bunch of 2h monasteries
but state property looks really necessary for our empire
2:16 PM Commodore: Yeah, that's got to be brutal
I'll actually probably be going for free market even without corps.
2:17 PM If Luddite even gets distracted I can take that second island.
me: good idea
you know, constitution/corporation would be really good if we didn't have pyramids and GLH!
2:18 PM Commodore: Gah
me: it's funny how many techs are bad for us right now
Commodore: That's an issue.
Man, exp harbors with the GLH must be heaven though.
me: it's nice (though harbors are a pretty bad building in general)
2:19 PM (their main benefit is health I guess)
Commodore: Yeah, it's a good health building.
I've been using them for that in my bigger non-freshwater cities.
me: even with 4 trade routes, the bonus only averages 2 commerce
2:20 PM but the health can be important
Commodore: Geh, Civ sucks at math.
me: yeah
Commodore: Rounding can be done up or down, guys.
me: you'd think +50% trade route yield would mean more than +.5 commerce per trade route
but it generally doesn't
Commodore: Sigh
2:21 PM me: so btw, now that you're sending us the save, when can you usually play?
[...]
2:28 PM Commodore: Yup.
And it's about that time.
2:29 PM I should get to things in about an hour, you'll see it before 6:30CST at the lastest.
me: cool
Commodore: Cheers Seven
2:30 PM me: cheers!

After playing the turn, I replied to him:

Quote:Your coal on the city tile of Ophir!

Unsurprisingly, there's one source per player.

Seven

Summary:

1. We traded Whale to Yuri for Banana. (Since we are getting kind of low on health in some cities, and want to secure the Banana trade for later.) We are trading maps with him too.

2. Commodore is probably simply going to back off on Scientific Method, and go up the Corporation/Assembly Line path instead, with Steel mixed in too. (Which is admittedly really good for him, giving +1 trade routes per city, organized factories, and Infantry. Not to mention the benefits from Steam Power and Constitution.)

Yay!

There is also some world diplomatic information in all that. Signs are pointing to an attack on GES by Yuris, with Commodore maybe trying to lend a finger too. By signs, I mean that they are both saying pretty point-blank that this will occur. lol

Of course, that doesn't mean it's the case. Faking a coming conflict to mask the real plan is a really obvious tactic.

The other possibilities are:
1) Yuri has really fooled Commodore and is going to attack him instead.
2) Both of them are colluding to attack us in violation of our NAPs.

(Note: Yuri is DEFINITELY planning to attack somebody - he revolted to nationhood/theo, has been drafting and spiking his power massively, and bought galleons from us. This can't just be a bluff.)

2 is really unlikely, though should not be completely discounted. But here's some evidence against it: Commodore could easily have razed the Great Lighthouse city under our control plus another one, and didn't. He could have done various annoying or terrible things to us. Instead he has been chatting extensively and being quite friendly. I am convinced he has no current ill intentions towards us. Yuri meanwhile could conceivably have ill intentions (maybe he feels like we've been trying to strongarm him all game) but he's not been playing that way at all. He would have to completely break his deals with us (a NAP, and a use clause on the galleons) and he and Maestro have been meticulously following their deals all game long. Furthermore he needn't even have put himself in that position. We were trying to extract concessions from him for the NAP, he could have just told us to stuff it and we wouldn't have been suspicious. So again, having chatted with them quite a bit, I think it's completely implausible that they're planning to betray us.

1 on the other hand is possible, and has seemed possible ever since Yuri negotiated the galleon purchase and started drafting. The reason it can't be eliminated as a possibility is that I have no idea what the diplomatic interactions between Commodore and Yuri have been, nor what they've been between GES and each of those two. I think it's really unlikely, and it gets less likely with every passing turn.

Anyway, though, my read on the situation is that Yuri is going to attack GES. Or at least he plans to do so if GES hasn't militarized enough by then. Note that in the last few turns, GES has researched:

Printing Press
Gunpowder
Aesthetics
Literature
Construction

... I think. A weird meandering collection there. (He said Literature was for the National Epic btw.) I don't think you can call that preparing for an attack, yet.

To get Rifling, he needs:

Feudalism
Guilds
Banking
RP
Rifling

(At least 5 turns of tech!)

To get Frigates, he needs

Compass
Optics
Astro
Engineering
Chemistry

If the tabletalk hints are correct, Yuri can legally declare on him in 8 turns I think. That's cutting it pretty close on GES's part. If that's truly what's going on, and Yuri is a persistent and competent aggressor, GES is going to take some damage.

**SevenSpirits** · August 9th, 2011, 11:06

Played t112.

After talking with Ranamar last night I decided to research Code of Laws instead of Drama. As much as I wanted to never get CoL, we will probably need it later as it's a prereq for Assembly Line. Additionally, we may want to run Caste System later (e.g. at our next golden age civics swap, when we add state property and get a bunch of workshops going). If we get Cristo Redentor there won't even be any drawbacks, we can swap to slavery as needed.

Meanwhile, Drama is only really useful for the Globe Theater at the moment, and I don't think we're ever going to build it.

So, CoL in. Next, Philosophy. (So we can race to Communism with great speed if we need to.) Btw, I turned research down to zero since we were finishing a couple science-boosting buildings (Unis in BD and Lorien (which I let finish), and a Library). We should crank it up to max again now.

At the end of the turn, our golden age expired. I took a before and after shot of the demographics:

[Image: t112-demo1.JPG]

Not bad! We lost about 300 commerce per turn but we're still second at max gold. (Our gold multipliers are possibly higher than our science multipliers this turn.) Since there are now just three opponents, here's the specific demographic values for everyone:

Code:
Crops       MFG       GNP

Us            507        210      1133

GES           365        187      1368

Yuris         328        145       581

Commodore     328        122       650

Note however: we've finally been overtaken in power. Yuri is not doing whatever he's doing halfheartedly.

EOT we got a free spread of Confucianism to Falls of Rauros (which is approximately on the other side of the world from the Confucian holy city), woo!

Only five more cities need Confucianism, two missionaries are already in existence and a third is on the way, so we'll only have to start two more. We have the most AP votes by a safe margin now, btw.

Had a long strategic discussion with Ranamar last night, btw. Main discussion points were:

1) How long can we avoid Corporation (and thus, Assembly Line), and still be safe?
Our judgement: we'll need to bite the bullet by the time others get to Industrialism and thus Marines, which own Machine Guns even amphibiously. But until then, plenty of military technology will be available to us, including Destroyers and Artillery and various planes.

2) Should we build Oxford in the capital and Ironworks elsewhere, or vice versa? We tentatively decided IW in the capital, for a few reasons:
- Oxford is usually best in capital because it's the best developed cottage-wise and also has Bureau at least for a while. But we'll be out of Bureau for Free Speech about the same time we could get Oxford there, since we didn't prioritize it. By the time we can build it, other cities like Edoras will be able to use the science boost nearly as well.
- IW in capital lets us continue the wonderspamming there. This is part practical (want all the gpp in one place; BD can surely build IW the fastest) and part stylistic.

**SevenSpirits** · August 10th, 2011, 18:59

Played but report will have to wait. Nothing exciting.

mackoti · August 11th, 2011, 04:01

Well i think that you dont have to avoid Corporation at all, you have many cities so i think some routes is made with your own cities so the loss will be maximum 30 gold /turn and if you build a factory and power and build wealth in one city you get that back.

Lewwyn · August 11th, 2011, 10:07

Wish you had reported. lol

Have the turn but am not playing it because I'm not sure about a few of the micros, nor do I know what these "w" signs are. Work that tile? Worker needed?

In any case we got steel. Shall we go Liberalism next?

**SevenSpirits** · August 11th, 2011, 10:31

W signs I mentioned above they just mean tile will eventually want a workshop but no hurry

Lib next but leave it almost reasearched so we can get lots of overflow into SM/communism later

**SevenSpirits** · August 11th, 2011, 14:42

Not hearing anything more from Lewwyn I decided to just play it. So here's the report, t115.

I whipped several things, mostly science-boosting ones. Right now I think our gold boosters still outnumber our science boosters! I set research to 0% this turn and dumped the overflow from Steel into Liberalism.

So here's what I'm thinking tech-wise. We don't want to make the scientific method plunge until we have our third type of great person (other than spy and scientist). There is about a 75% chance we'll get what we need in three turns. So, plan to research SciMeth in four? Then Communism then Physics?

As our science multipliers are only going up, we should do the gold gathering as early as possible. So, contrary to the sign I made in-game in the capital:

t116: research at 10-20%, however high we can go without finishing Lib. We'll get up to about 2000 gold, more than enough for four turns of full blast research.
t117: research scientific method up to almost complete too. Probably at 100%, maybe a bit less though.
t118: research to 100%, finish Liberalism with massive overflow

This is when we get our great person. If it's a scientist or spy, we need to pop another so we should NOT research scientific method and obsolete our great people boosters quite yet. I would say divert to Railroad. (Then, later we can use max research into Priesthood with plenty gold saved followed by max research into scientific method, in order to get enough overflow to 1t Communism and Physics, after we hopefully get our third GP.)

t119: research still at 100%, finish Scientific Method with double massive overflow
t120: finish Communism
t121: bulb physics and finish it. Start a golden age. (We should have yuris' great scientist by now too so we won't have to wait until EOT for the scientist from physics.)

Keeping this in mind, we should probably whip a few more science multiplier buildings next turn. I'd say Edoras should just grow (it's going to build Oxford, we want tons of population there) but these three cities can do cheap whips:

[Image: t115-6.JPG]

Btw, here's Barad-dur:

[Image: t115-1.JPG]

We should grab that last riverside town from Minas Tirith in order to take full advantage of the just-completed Levee. I guess, if the GP still comes in 3t if we fire a merchant, do that, otherwise give away a windmill to Khand.

Here are demographics. Despite my efforts to whip everyone away now that the golden age is done, we're still rising impressively in crop yield.

[Image: t115-2.JPG]

Power is scary, hopefully our NAPs hold. I've built a couple muskets in Lorien before starting on the Drydock when steel came in. I think we really just want machine guns though. Luckily all our opponents don't even have compass yet. Only yuris has the ability to surprise us. (And breaking a NAP plus the terms of the galleon sale would be quite the surprise!)

[Image: t115-5.JPG]

Here are his galleons in fact. Due to hit Ballast Point on t118? Or hit both Ballast Point and Mission (farther north) on t119 perhaps.

**SevenSpirits** · August 11th, 2011, 14:47

mackoti Wrote:Well i think that you dont have to avoid Corporation at all, you have many cities so i think some routes is made with your own cities so the loss will be maximum 30 gold /turn and if you build a factory and power and build wealth in one city you get that back.

It's not terrible. But it's also a big beaker sink for little benefit yet.

Nationalism: no effect yet as we don't want to be in Nationhood until Cristo Redentor.
Constitution: no effect since we already have Pyramids
(Democracy: again no plan to get this because of mids. I mention this because leading to Democracy is also a benefit of Constitution normally.)
Corporation: minor negative effect.
Assembly Line: IMO we don't need to hurry for this.

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