Gandhi of France: The Non-Violent Warrior

[oledavy]

Did we ever discuss attacking help pix as a team? What exactly do your forces look like? It just seems weird to me that we would go after a team with infantry when we need units up North against China or to defend from Thoth. It just seems to me like attacking now is not the right play--better to use those units elsewhere if you have ones not needed to defend against Sulla.

We didn't really, this is more of a side project. I did mention it in the massive strategy post I did a little while back and neither of you commented on it. At any rate, the genesis of this idea came when I realized I could attack Help Pix! and always be within 20 railroaded tiles of Leipzig. The current forces in Leipzig are not sufficient to hold the city against Team #4's stack. However, I will have two turns of warning. So, I'm using my defensive units on a limited offensive while keeping them within range of the threatened city. This is why I didn't proffer these units for Operation Armageddon; they would have arrived too late to meet up with the initial stack anyway.

As for why it would beneficial to take Help Pix! Owning the city would prevent Sulla from sneaking a naval task force up to my coastal cities and give me advance warning of his incoming naval forces. Most importantly, it denies him wines and clams. He's in Representation, so he's hurting for happy. More notably, with all those factories he's gotta be hurting for health. The clams represent +2 health for every city that can build an expansive harbor, so denying them to him will put a lot of hurt on his crop yield. Not to mention the +1 health from wines he's getting from the grocer that's sure to be in his capital.

The forces consist of about a dozen rifles, along with a few machine guns and cannon. I'm not expecting Sulla to put up much of a fight, as the city is isolated and he does nto have any collateral of his own to counter. Furthermore, nothing he has is going to make progress against machine guns. There will be a risk to Leipzig for a couple turns while I'm moving through Sulla's territory, but it's small enough that I thought it worthwhile. Thoth has not shown any indication of further aggression since taking Orleans back. At any rate, that is the logic behind this attack.

Perhaps you could use some of the Chinese plunder gold on upgrading those Frigates to Destroyers? I'd imagine many of the Chinese captures should be pretty lucrative. I don't know, just an idea. I do tend to agree that you guys will be better off trying to KO team 1 through some military means given their beaker edge. You guys can close it up a bit, but probably can't completely catch them.

Agreed, wish I could upgrade them right now I could break Sulla's blockade, no problems. It just represents about 500 gold to do so, more than what WK makes in a turn.

[oledavy]

Note to Self: Workshop Louisbourg's Rice Tile

[Shoot the Moon]

Yea but do you really have anything that can kill fortified infantry behind city culture? With MGs I'm not worried so much about him attacking as you not being able to take the city.

[oledavy]

Yea but do you really have anything that can kill fortified infantry behind city culture? With MGs I'm not worried so much about him attacking as you not being able to take the city.

Pretty sure, last I checked there was only a single rifle in the city. I'm expecting to have to deal with 3-5 infantry on the hill once I get past his cavalry in the fort. Intimidating, but nothing a half-dozen cannon can't take care of.

[WarriorKnight]

Actually, this is a good place to start talking about my vision for how we're going to win this thing. Provided we actually stop Team #2's culture victory, It will be us and Team #1 in a slugfest until the end of time. I don't expect they'll agree to banning a space victory whenever I propose that to them, and we won't be able to beat them in a Space Race. So, what will we do?

Remember WK's post about producing Commando Mech Infantry?

Provided we get all the GGs we need out of the battles in China, our target unit will be mechanized infantry. We produce a shit ton of those, and I secure naval control of the eastern sea. Then, in one titanic turn, I take a coastal city and unload a horde of mechanized infantry. With any luck, we raze a half dozen of Sulla's core cities, most importantly the capital, Requiem. Hopefully, a surprise strike like this will gut Team #1's research and production potential, and allow us to secure the victory. So, yeah, for those of you who read my PBEM17 thread, Operation Going Commando, Mark 2!

At any rate, we haven't discussed this plan as a team yet, and it is certainly a long way down the road.

Sounds about the same as what I was planning to do to Speaker. A co-ordinated strike would be pretty cool, although ensuring we strike Sulla is probably more important.

Since all units move 10 tiles a turn on RR's, and there's a pretty good chance of getting all the GG's we need from Armageddon, I think we could go in with Commando Marines or maybe even Infantry instead of having to wait for Mech Infantry (aside from the GG's all we need is Military Science for Commando, Military Tradition for West Point and a civic swap into Vassalage me easily done with Cristo). Downside is they are less effective if Team 1 don't have a complete Rail network up, but given how much sooner we could strike (and the unlikeliness of Team 1 not having a good Rail network) I think it's worthwhile.

[spacemanmf]

So, yeah, for those of you who read my PBEM17 thread, Operation Going Commando, Mark 2!

Hopefully they'll be caught with their trousers down...

[oledavy]

[SIZE="7"]Turn 188[/SIZE]

Alrighty, this was actually a pretty fun turn to play. I got to retaliate against Sulla, and do some tricky micro stuff.

First off, you've heard of MAD. Well, allow me to introduce you to

[SIZE="7"]M.A.B.[/SIZE][SIZE="1"](Mutually Assured Blockades)[/SIZE]

Sulla grouped all six of his visible destroyers east of Trafalgar, blockading a wide stretch of tiles from Trafalgar to Vigo Bay. My previous plan was to build up enough forces until I could either kill all of his blockading destroyers in one set piece battle, or force him to withdraw. Then I had an epiphany.

It's going to be awhile before I collect sufficient forces to kill Sulla's bloackading fleet, and I've been working to make my coastal cities able to sustain themselves without water tiles. So, why not just ignore Sulla's ships altogether and take the fight to his waters?



So, I took my destroyers out to sea, pillaged Map Control's Crabs, Teleport Gank's Fish, Bombarded both cities down to 0% defense bonus, and laid blockade to the cities from 1W of Teleport Gank.



Sulla's visible navy consists of 7 destroyers, 2 frigates, and 2 galleons, so I doubt he will be engaging my destroyer flotilla next turn. They're probably a couple more out in the fog to the east, but not sufficient numbers to kill my forces.

So, one again, I am blockading the islands and denying Sulla commerce from intercontinental trade routes. Next turn, I can:

A. Maintain the blockade.
B. Blockade Sulla's coastal cities.
C. Retreat into Trafalgar/Vigo Bay.

While this situation can only last until he gets industrialism for battleships, I intend to enjoy the hell out of it while I can. As long as he's blockading me, I'm doing the same to him. Every coastal city of mine is sinking hammers into navy, and Sulla is eventually going to need to make the decision whether or not to do the same, or lose control of the sea again. Either way, I view it as a win for us. If I gain control of the sea, I will starve his coastal cities into nothingness and prepare for Operation Going Commando. If he counters me, those are just hammers that don't go to the western front.

In the north, I scoped out Thunder Claws with my frigate:



Seeing nothing, I moved my destroyer down, pillaged the fish, then moved back into position to blockade - bombarding the city's defenses while I was at it and adding the ironclad to the stack.



Note the fort on the tile south of Thunder Claws, right where I thought it would be.

I thought about doing some tricky stuff with workers and creating a fort for my destroyer to hide in, skipping on the blockade altogether However, I counted tiles, and I doubt he has more than a single destroyer in range of the tile at this juncture. It's a chance I'm willing to take.

The results of the turn:



Pocket change, but it felt good to get back at Sulla after being chased from the seas once again. It will be interesting to see what Sulla does.

Here are the forces I have arrayed to date to attack Help Pix!



I have gone back to supplying France with rifles now that I have enough of my own - gifting Shoot three of them this turn. I have 6 rifles on stagnant defense, and 20 in or en route to Dien Bien Phu to play zone defense and position to assault Sulla. I pulled most of these out of thin air during the last few turns via drafting. At this point, I'm primarily waiting on the arrival of cannon before going in. Additionally, I have 17 machine guns. Nine of them are spread out in stagnant defense roles, while eight are again, in or en route to Dien Bien Phu to serve as a floating defense force.

I'm going to use my destroyers to bombard down the defenders of Help Pix! as I go by. They additionally revealed that Sulla withdrew three more of his cavalry from the ismus, leaving just four knightsto oppose me. Cutting off that canal permanently would also be nice in terms of the naval fight.

My concern is whether or not Thoth decides to push against Leipzig. I have this recurring nightmare that during the crucial two turns I'm out of reach of the city, knee-deep in Sullan culture, Thoth attacks. He's added a couple catapults to the stack, furthering my paranoia. While his rifles and musketeers don't intimidate me in the least, his cavalry are legitimately scary. Those things can get pretty decent odds on MGs, ignoring the first strikes and able to get a bonus against siege. At any rate, we still have a couple turns to make the final decision. In the meantime, my mantra has been more cannon, more machine guns!.

So, some of you may remember the note I wrote to myself in the thread, telling me to workshop Louisbourg's rice:



Not a tile improvement you're going to see very often. However, I figured 3/4 hammers outweighed 1 food. The city is now growing to pick up the plains hill mine, at which point it will stagnate at size 11, producing 44 base hammers per turn. That's 81 hpt building destroyers!



At that rate, Louisbourg can produce three destroyers every five turns. (81*5 = 405, 405/134 = 3.02) Not bad if I do say so myself. I can also repurpose it to run wealth in a crunch. On the downside, with it being stagnant, it won't really be able to benefit from Kremlin whips. However, there are still plenty of cities that pick up 2/0/2 coastal tiles that I'll be whipping away with regularity.

The other issue I confronted when determining to improve this tile was whether to hold off for a couple turns and allow the city to grow a turn sooner working it (picking up the phm), or improving it right away. 1 extra turn of working a phm vs. 2 extra turns of working a workshop. 8 hammers > 5 hammers.

Anyway, I know that's a lot to say about a single tile improvement and city, just little micro things like this make me happy.

Couldn't quite get the Levee finished a turn sooner in Leipzig:



Doing so would have meant starving the city a bit, and I thought it wasn't worth it.

I've started converting a couple of the plains hill mines around Trafalgar into Windmills to help deal with the lower food surplus:



Again, wish really badly I had build Angkor Wat somewhere else....

Oh well, hindsight is 20/20, and again, no other place had the production at the time to build it in a decent time frame - that wasn't otherwise tied up anyway.

Dien Bien Phu just keeps making me happier and happier.



The city is producing a ridiculous amount of hammers per turn, and it hasn't even been completely workshopped. Once Seven finishes the Ironworks, it will be able to 1-turn any unit currently available. In fact it will be losing hammers in overflow. I can't wait until I can start 1-turning bombers and tanks out of here. In the meantime, I'm planning on using the food surplus to run a couple scientists. Also, once electricity comes in, the city will receive +2 cpt on each watermill, for a net boost of +8cpt. Hardly game-changing, but still nice.

In the south, I discovered I can watermill a couple of the riverside tundra tiles around Metz.



Going to do so, and will grow the city up to size 5 to pick both of them up.

My builds, mostly military at this point:



Let's see if we can't win this war.

End Turn.

[zakalwe]

Hopefully they'll be caught with their trousers down...

[Kylearan]

I'm curious about your thoughts on naval blockades. From your report, it looks like you have some fun maneuvering your flotilla around or against Sulla's ships. So is it making the best out of two stupid CIV concepts (naval battles, naval blockades), or is it genuinely fun?

[oledavy]

I'm curious about your thoughts on naval blockades. From your report, it looks like you have some fun maneuvering your flotilla around or against Sulla's ships. So is it making the best out of two stupid CIV concepts (naval battles, naval blockades), or is it genuinely fun?

It's probably a lot more fun that it looks. That being said, I don't think blockades are a stupid concept. It's extremely annoying when someone blockades you with galleys/triremes in the early game that can't even reach all the tiles in the 7x7 blockade radius; but at least everything post galleons can actually do so. At any rate, I'm not against blockades. It just makes sense to me to be able to deny an opponent working water tiles if you have naval superiority - the same way controlling the field allows you to pillage the land around an opponent's city. That being said, were I a programmer, I would cut down the blockading radius of ships: 3x3 for galleys and triremes, 5x5 for everything else. Having to deploy more stacks of ships to achieve the same result would make the mechanic more balanced imho.

As for naval combat....argh. One of the worst aspects of Civ4. It always just comes down to brute force and whoever has more ships in the water. You could say this is true for land battles, but there we have a rock-paper-scissors unit balance and different terrain to mix things up. On the sea, the defender will consistently have an advantage thanks to the +10% coastal defense bonus. There are no buildings that give promotions on ships until late in the game, so it's difficult to overcome this. In order to be sure to mop up a defending fleet, you always need a 2v1 numerical superiority. Then you get to the post-industrialism/radio world, where bombers and battleships dominate. Suddenly, whoever gets in the first strike has the advantage. You can counter bombers, but there is not counter to battleships. You leave your fleet out, and it simply dies (Just ask Spacemanf ). Naval combat goes through a polar shift, and suddenly, it's not safe to leave your fleet anywhere. Then later come guided missiles.... Anyway, naval combat = not extremely fun. What it really needs is more units; ones that have bonuses against other types of naval units to create a rock-paper-scissors like balance on waves. Take away the coastal defense bonus, add some other buildings that give xp to naval units, give some ships ranged attacks that can hit ground units as well as naval, and you'd be well on your way to making naval combat enjoyable.

So, really long answer to your question: I would say it's making the best of two poorly implemented concepts. However, I did have a lot of fun with that last turn - mostly because I'm spiteful.