[SPOILERS] - Tredje and Mardoc are Sheelba of the Clan of Embers

[Bobchillingworth]

@Bob - would we really have stalemated? It seems to me that you'd have wiped the floor with the Clan, Sons and all. Even assuming skeleton spam was insufficient to do the job - we only knew to hit Ocells because of Iskender's Hawk presence, so you'd definitely have gotten Gibbon. And, well - with Gibbon, and maybe a stable of Sons - how the heck could anyone have stopped you?

I really don't want to hijack your thread, but since you asked...


I think there's a good chance we'd have stalemated. Gibbon would only be able to sling out three earth elementals a time to start, which while very dangerous could still be soaked up by fire elementals leaving you at least one a turn to attack with. Plus Gibbon isn't nearly the same sort of world-conquering force as four Sons, at least not until he can get up to twincast, which would have taken me many turns. Domination would have turned everything around of course, but would you really have moved your units so poorly that I'd have had a chance? I sort of doubt it, plus axes were more likely defend against a domination attempt than the Sons (and if they did, then I'd have been short a stone elemental to defend and possibly in trouble from a counter attack). I don't know if you could have taken any of my cities, but I'd have had to invest heavily in military when I should have been using my huge golden age to push tech.


Also world domination wasn't necessarily my goal It would have been hard to pull off with just Gibbon anyway- I didn't have staggered NAPs like you guys did to keep me safe, or a reliable ally.



And heck, even if I really would have rolled you, that *still* doesn't provide a sufficient reason for Iskender to go after me. He'd have been better off poaching your cities to set himself up with an edge, and trying to get an NAP with me. Oh also there is the little detail that his hero is the best hard-counter to Gibbon in the game.

[Mardoc]

Ok, I regroup the Sons and Shaman and start them on the long trek westward. Hopefully Haste + the roads my workers have been constructing get them to the front before Iskender decides to try anything preemptive.

Also, a piece of good news! Rantine begins heading east


I think I'll stop settler production with the current pair in progress, who will go to the other ex-Bals site, and resettle our island.

Since we have all the Bals cities and 2 Sheaim cities out of revolt, I go ahead and push the buttons:







2t for Sanitation, then probably 4 for Corruption of Spirit, followed by 3ish for Priesthood. At the moment, breakeven is 210 bpt - that'll improve dramatically as we have 6 Courthouses finishing in the next 6 turns.

And...I just discovered we have plans for the afternoon, so more later or tomorrow.

[Gaspar]

Just want to say, since I promised to otherwise shut up, that I appreciate everyone weighing in on what is clearly not a straightforward decision.

[Rowain]

One last comment from me about the NAP. Consider this: How would your reaction have been had Iskender simply turned around and used his units to wipe out your western cities while you army was extremly busy in the east.

What would you think about him/deals in general/deals with Iskender in special etc etc.?

[Gaspar]

One last comment from me about the NAP. Consider this: How would your reaction have been had Iskender simply turned around and used his units to wipe out your western cities while you army was extremly busy in the east.

What would you think about him/deals in general/deals with Iskender in special etc etc.?

In my mind, and I think this also seemed to be the prevailing opinion of the other lurkers, there's a huge difference between attacking someone while under a defined NAP - i.e. we have a NAP until T145 with Iskender, he attacks us on T130 and this far less well defined agreement.

The other issue is intent - the world spell agreement was clearly intended, and I can't read Iskender's thread, but I'd guess if you looked at when he signed it as well that was his thought, to prevent Sidar rushing Clan or Clan rushing Sidar via the world spell. Given we're, what, 60+ turns past For The Horde being cast, I don't think anyone would call this a rush. In a NAP, the intent is that neither side attacks or clearly aids in a military action against the other. If you attack a city while NAP'd, then you're violating the agreements clearly defined terms.

Anyway, I don't think its worth hashing this out over and over. I dislike that Iskender can win this game on nothing more than a lottery ticket - and if someone points in his thread to his saying avoiding the Sons of the Inferno was his reasoning behind making the deal, then I'll happily be proven wrong forever and give him credit for outstanding diplomacy. Regardless, if Mardoc doesn't feel comfortable with it, its his game at this point and he gets to make that decision, so let's give him hell with Ogres. My point in this discussion only has been that I don't feel the decision is as cut and dried as say, upholding a NAP or not.

[Mist]

I dislike that Iskender can win this game on nothing more than a lottery ticket.

Let me ask this then - what else is curb-stomping everyone with 4 uber-archmages, that no one ( mapmaker included ) expected to be obtainable with For The Horde, if not winning the game on a lottery ticket?

[Rowain]

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[Mardoc]

Don't have time for a detailed report, but I think the general situation has been clear from the past few turns. I'll try to get to a report tonight. With only 3 of us left, I wanted to rush to play it before work so I might see it again when I get home.

I think I'm going to conclude that I'll leave the Sons on defense on the Sidar front, not attack with them. I could argue it, but it's coming down to a gut feel on my part. With a bit of 'it'll be more fun this way' tied in.

A *second* barb city appeared in ex-Balseraph lands this turn, 1 SW of where the ruins from Bob's city are. I warned Square Leg; he might just turn around his life adept as a result (which would be fine with me, Blight's not a major risk anymore). And...it's not the perfect spot for a city, but it's close; and this way the barbs might even grow it before I take responsibilty for paying the maintenance.





I love being Clan sometimes. Free land! Freeeee land!

I suppose with all the time I've put into the settler pair, I might as well finish it; probably one city will go by the Tomb of Sucellus and the other on the gold island. Certainly not building any more settlers after this!

And, in diplomatic news:

[COLOR="Silver"]Hey

Regarding the Axe: if you're unable to recover it in reasonable time I think 500gp would be a fair compensation.

Iskender[/COLOR]

Now I see why you didn't want me to mention it, Gaspar.

That's absurd! 500 gold is essentially our share of the city capture gold. That's three turns of research! That's darn near what Square Leg is paying for peace! And when did it morph from 'you get the Axe' to 'I'm responsible for delivering the Axe in a timely fashion'? I'm inclined to send back something like this:

Patience, Iskender. I haven't given up hope yet.

As an aside - I had a nasty thought this turn. If I had the Axe in the area, and was feeling a little spiteful...maybe I'd plop it down on Acheron's island. I wonder if Bob did that? I might still be able to retrieve it, for now, being still at peace with the barbs, but if it's there I'd better hurry.

A second trireme finishes at EOT, I might go ahead and redeclare on Keelyn to hit her trireme and see if an Axe pops out. I'm not sure that's a good idea when I don't have forces near her actual island, though. Gonna think about that one.

[Tredje]

Lol @ Iskender's request. Either Iskender is out of his mind or he is trying to provoke you. For the record it was never stated that the Clan was responsible for getting Iskender the Axe. All that was agreed upon was that he could have it. If I were you Mardoc I would reply with a polite, stalling message that states you will continue to search for the Axe. How much effort you put into your search, now that is a different matter

Also, I would advise against declaring war on Keelyn on a whim. What do you have to gain by doing so? If Iskender wants the Axe that badly, let him build some boats and come searching for it himself.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, our NAP with the Sidar is expired, is that correct? What is your plan regarding the immediate future? You know that come T171 you will most likely be looking at a 1v2 situation. As I stated earlier I would go into full military mode in all cities with Warrens and hit him as soon as possible, preferably before T160. If not, prepare for a 1v2 on T171.

[Mardoc]

Also, I would advise against declaring war on Keelyn on a whim. What do you have to gain by doing so? If Iskender wants the Axe that badly, let him build some boats and come searching for it himself.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, our NAP with the Sidar is expired, is that correct? What is your plan regarding the immediate future? You know that come T171 you will most likely be looking at a 1v2 situation. As I stated earlier I would go into full military mode in all cities with Warrens and hit him as soon as possible, preferably before T160. If not, prepare for a 1v2 on T171.

Yes, the Sidar NAP is expired at EOT. I do think we ought to hit him sharply soon; I'm inclined to wait until the current batch of Warrens finishes, then to go full military in those cities (amurite and original Clan), while the Balseraph/Sheaim lands focus on economic infrastructure and getting Ashen Veil infra into place.

Combining 5ish Warrens cities + the draft ought to give us a very quick build up.

This assumes Iskender doesn't try to preemptively hit us first, while the east is still mostly useless and the Sons are far away. If he does, then we go into full military mode this instant, don't worry about waiting to make it a surprise. His power graph has been declining recently (slightly), and I'm hopeful that if I stay peaceful looking he'll Wane his Priests right before we can build up fast. Then we'd have Wanes for ourselves

With Keelyn - well, part of what I'm thinking is a desire to check that trireme for axe or no axe. It's wounded from fighting a sea serpent, so it'd be easy to kill. If we can tell Iskender we've found the axe and will be sending it his way as soon as we get a warrior on a boat to go grab it, that buys us the 5-10 turns we need to get our current batch of Warrens built, Sons to the west again, etc. He could hurt us right now, but given a little time to shuffle troops I'll feel much more secure.

But...you're probably right about waiting to declare until we can actually go take that island. Which I'm currently thinking will be best done with Rantine (post barb city bullying) + axes + ritualists

I haven't yet given up hope of finding it. 500 gp is too much, but I don't expect to need to negotiate on this point since I think it'll be irrelevant. I'll grant you access to my southern lands if you're interested enough to finish the Balseraph war and find it yourself.

- Mardoc

Too grumpy?