WW24: The Ashes of Brigdarrow: VILLAGE WINS

[zakalwe]

It's not like you to not think through all the options Zak.

I take the above as a pretty direct attack, particularly when you consider the context in which it was delivered. My reaction:

This made a huge blip on my scumdar. After turning the other cheek all through day 1 and 2, the doubts are now conveniently starting to "creep in" when I'm starting to actually catch heat.

To which Gazglum replied:

I didn't say I thought you were scum. just that it was an out of character error. I actually still think you're town. But I'm wondering if you might have any night action results you want to share with us later today?

Why doesn't this post end after "I actually still think you're town"? And why is there an "actually" in there, for that matter? Why probe me for night action results, if you don't suspect me?

According to Gazglum, my play has been weird, but not scummy. In fact, he dedicates a whole new post to that:

No, I won't be sharing any results today, Gazglum. Care to explain why you're asking me that?

I think your play over the last 24 hours has been not exactly scummy per se, but weird.

Flipping your vote to lynch Serdoa - that was a bit weird. I understand your reasoning, but it sure came out of left field.

This post:

Ichabod, what is bad about my explanation for voting Serdoa?

For the greater good, you really shouldn't waste your time on me tomorrow. And yeah, I'll probably still be here. I bet the scum will be so annoyed by my arrogance that they'll keep me around.

That was really weird. Way too scummy, from you, to actually be scummy?

Saying that Scum Zak couldn't know there was a SK anyway, when Mattimeo had already explained that scum could know about SK (post 361), and a moment's reflection would tell you the same. That's not the kind of mistake I expect you to make. That was weird.

End of Day 2 you were on nobody's kill list but Ichabods. Now you're a frontrunner. Why would scum Zak have played things in such a way to paint such a big target on his chest? To potentially (but not certainly) lynch a probable-village Serdoa over another probable-villager?

What I saw last night, or what I thought I saw, was a Power Role townie who was in danger of being nightkilled making his best attempt to scum himself up enough to deflect the kill. That's the only real way your posts make sense to me.

Anyway, since I don't really buy that Serdoa wouldn't kill anybody night one, I think we have a doctor, so it seems like it might be safe to claim something if you're a blocker or a cop. If YOU actually are the doctor...maybe keep quiet. If you're a mason, I Hope it will help you narrow down the scum today.

If you have no power-role, then I think your play makes less sense.

But I can see that holding off on any claims till late in the day makes sense anyway, so I'm happy to leave it for now.

This whole post is just a huge waste of time. What is the point of elaborating to great length about how my play implicates me as a town power role? To me, this post only serves two purposes: 1) it takes up space, making Gazglum look active, and 2) it lays the groundwork for later suspecting me of being scum, taking the step from "weird" to "scummy". Last night, the scum killed Ichabod, and probably also decided that they would aim to lynch me instead of killing me. So if Gazglum is scum, he'd better do something about his "Zakalwe is town" stance before it becomes a hindrance. Hence, this maneuvering.

Look at it another way: why would you post all of the above if you really just think I'm a town power role? What purpose does it serve?

In particular, note this part: "What I saw last night, or what I thought I saw, was a Power Role townie who was in danger of being nightkilled making his best attempt to scum himself up enough to deflect the kill. That's the only real way your posts make sense to me."

So he saw some behavior that can only in his mind be explained by me being town, and his immediate reaction to that was to call me out on it? It makes no sense. I think he was planning to take a more direct route from not suspecting me to suspecting me, but when I called him out on it, he came up with the power role angle instead.

[slowcheetah]

To which Gazglum replied:

I didn't say I thought you were scum. just that it was an out of character error. I actually still think you're town. But I'm wondering if you might have any night action results you want to share with us later today?

Why doesn't this post end after "I actually still think you're town"? And why is there an "actually" in there, for that matter? Why probe me for night action results, if you don't suspect me?

Doesn't that tie in to suspecting you as a town power role, rather than a wolf? It's a rather direct probe admittedly, and one which could be considered anti-town.

No, I won't be sharing any results today, Gazglum. Care to explain why you're asking me that?

I think your play over the last 24 hours has been not exactly scummy per se, but weird.

Flipping your vote to lynch Serdoa - that was a bit weird. I understand your reasoning, but it sure came out of left field.

This post:

Ichabod, what is bad about my explanation for voting Serdoa?

For the greater good, you really shouldn't waste your time on me tomorrow. And yeah, I'll probably still be here. I bet the scum will be so annoyed by my arrogance that they'll keep me around.

That was really weird. Way too scummy, from you, to actually be scummy?

Saying that Scum Zak couldn't know there was a SK anyway, when Mattimeo had already explained that scum could know about SK (post 361), and a moment's reflection would tell you the same. That's not the kind of mistake I expect you to make. That was weird.

End of Day 2 you were on nobody's kill list but Ichabods. Now you're a frontrunner. Why would scum Zak have played things in such a way to paint such a big target on his chest? To potentially (but not certainly) lynch a probable-village Serdoa over another probable-villager?

What I saw last night, or what I thought I saw, was a Power Role townie who was in danger of being nightkilled making his best attempt to scum himself up enough to deflect the kill. That's the only real way your posts make sense to me.

Anyway, since I don't really buy that Serdoa wouldn't kill anybody night one, I think we have a doctor, so it seems like it might be safe to claim something if you're a blocker or a cop. If YOU actually are the doctor...maybe keep quiet. If you're a mason, I Hope it will help you narrow down the scum today.

If you have no power-role, then I think your play makes less sense.

But I can see that holding off on any claims till late in the day makes sense anyway, so I'm happy to leave it for now.

This whole post is just a huge waste of time. What is the point of elaborating to great length about how my play implicates me as a town power role? To me, this post only serves two purposes: 1) it takes up space, making Gazglum look active, and 2) it lays the groundwork for later suspecting me of being scum, taking the step from "weird" to "scummy". Last night, the scum killed Ichabod, and probably also decided that they would aim to lynch me instead of killing me. So if Gazglum is scum, he'd better do something about his "Zakalwe is town" stance before it becomes a hindrance. Hence, this maneuvering.

Look at it another way: why would you post all of the above if you really just think I'm a town power role? What purpose does it serve?

In particular, note this part: "What I saw last night, or what I thought I saw, was a Power Role townie who was in danger of being nightkilled making his best attempt to scum himself up enough to deflect the kill. That's the only real way your posts make sense to me."

So he saw some behavior that can only in his mind be explained by me being town, and his immediate reaction to that was to call me out on it? It makes no sense. I think he was planning to take a more direct route from not suspecting me to suspecting me, but when I called him out on it, he came up with the power role angle instead.
[/quote]

I'd be interested to hear Gazglums response to this, I can think of one possible reason, but not many more.

[zakalwe]

Doesn't that tie in to suspecting you as a town power role, rather than a wolf? It's a rather direct probe admittedly, and one which could be considered anti-town.

Well yeah, it's consistent with the large elaboration post that follows. I just don't see why he would go there in the first place.

[Gazglum]

Good morning townies and scum.

Zak, I'm sorry I've made you suspect me. The meat of your accusation, that I am manoeuvring myself to vote for you, really does feels kind of unfair because I still think you're probably town. I guess I can't prove that to you.

I posted all that mainly because it was what I was thinking and I tend to just write out my thoughts in this game. But also, I posted it because I basically wanted to know the truth - were you covering for a power role? Because that way I could understand your behaviour.

The problem is that, in my opinion Zak, you didn't play very well at the end of Day 2. You took a big risk of losing a strong town player, based on very little evidence. You did it without overwhelming force, so that if you WERE wrong, scum could guarantee that the mislynch on a strong player went through. You then acted PROTECTIVE/AGGRESSIVE through the night phase, drawing a lot of attention.

It's a matter of opinion, I'm not saying you objectively played badly. But you can see that it put a lot of red flags up for other people - you're now a leading lynch candidate. That's a bad result if you're town.

ANd of course, you did hit a scum, and I count that in your favour. But not a wolf. And imagine what the reaction would be now if you had down your dance and killed a village Serdoa? The village would be rightly pissed at you and ROwain, really furious. But in both cases, your actions would have been the same. The pleasing result was as much luck as skill.

My problem was that I could see that this day would turn into a Zak inquisition, and I was worried that that was a dead end because, as I said, I thought you must have been partially drawing suspicion on purpose so as to avoid the night kill. I didn't and don't think that you will hang - you're too good at defence for that. But if we had to spend a whole Day 3 watching you fight your way out of a corner, then that is a wasted day.

If you had said, "Yes, I am a X role, here is some evidence, I would like doctor protection tonight, let's catch some bad guys," then we would have had a relatively clear deck and we could have a productive day. That is why I think it wasn't anti-town to probe you on it.

I know you dont' want to be nightkilled, but because it's a team game, that's not necessarily so bad. As long as we catch wolves in the daytime, then our individual deaths for the motherland are glorious sacrifices.

Anyway, maybe you're not a power role, maybe you're a wolf, maybe you're vanilla town. I was trying to short-circuit the whole question by giving you an opportunity to lay it all out. Because I do feel that, regardless of your alignment, you're holding back some things.

Perwhaps you're right that it's anti-town to raise it at all. I thought, on balance, it wasn't, but I understand people who disagree. But I felt I had to come out with it, because you started the day attacking me. I made my "not like you Zak" post, because it was true, and because I was, again, trying to gauge your behaviour to see if it matched with a power role. But then you claimed I was trying to lynch you. So to defend myself against that, I told the truth.

Also even if you hadn't, I thought it was worth putting forth my POV why I thought you were town.

Finally, I take offense at "it takes up space, making Gazglum look active,". I've spent hours and hours on this game, and posted way more than half the people here. Compare what I've written today to Lewwyn or Brick. I don't think I need to be straining to look more active.

[zakalwe]

Ok, good post, Gazglum. I'll let you off the hook.

Not sure who to vote for, then. I'm not so keen on Slowcheetah right now either, so that just leaves Lewwyn and Brick. But maybe I was too quick to dismiss the other four.

I'll leave my vote on Brick while I sleep, just to encourage him to make an actual contribution today. He would be a good information lynch, at least.

[slowcheetah]

Screw it, Brick came online and again didn't post anything of meaning. I'm off to bed. Night all

[BRickAstley]

Gah. I'm here but I'm still reading through, the first checkup was a skim but now I'm reading through carefully.

[Gazglum]

Hmm, the last hours dawn.

My personal lynch list is down to Mattimeo, Brick and Azza. Brick and Azza are mutually exclusive, and I have to think about them a bit more.

Mattimeo, I'm not fully satisfied with your Post #432 response to me. First,

Can only say it would have swung things in hindsight, and in hindsight, my vote would have made it a 50/50 coin flip between Azza and who we now know to be the Serial Killer. Not exactly likely to make me feel guilty that my inaction caused a threat to the town to be lynched...

I feel like that's using emotion to try and sway suspicion away, but it's really irrelevant, just as Serdoa flipping serial killer doesn't totally justify the switch to him by Rowain and Zak. You didn't know anybody's alignment beforehand, you can't use that as post-lynch justification for an action. And I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, just trying to understand your thinking.

Also, you didn't answer some of my questions. Most importantly - after all the extra discussion about Azza, have you got any new thoughts? Do you think he is scummier or less scummy than you did Day 2, and why?

You're not giving a lot of reads, and you're minimising your voting tells. I don't know why others are putting you in the town basket so easily.

[Gazglum]

Is Waterbat's scraper supposed to just show number of posts, or is there some way to get a page showing all someone's posts? If I click on somebody's name, it 404 Errors on me.

[Gazglum]

He [MATTIMEO - Gaz edit] still feels townish to me. He doesn't appear to be trying too hard which he typically does as scum. Not saying he should be declared unlynchably town, but there's no shortage of better lynch candidates IMO.

Who are the better lynch candidates Azza? Who do you favour at the moment, say top 3 lynch preferences?