[No Players] Where the Lurkers Take Their Holidays

[Qgqqqqq]

I don't have strong feelings about the start balance, especially without seeing them all next to one another. As good practice I normally wouldn't allocate until balance was done, but what's done is done.

I would suggest though, that if you plan on a mpa with no islands, you tell players about that before picking begins, as it has a large effect on some traits/civs.

[pindicator]

Hey all, I just want to take one last look at the starts later today.  There might be a couple small revisions, but I'll have something posted within 24 hrs.

Edit:  and that should have been posted in the tech thread, but it still stands for here.  I'll post all the starting images here shortly and ask for everyone's input, then if there are any changes they will be at my sole discretion.

[pindicator]

I'm going to open this up for a final round of input. Below are the 10 starts for each player. If you want to give input you have roughly 24 hours to give it. I know it's a small window, but hopefully that's enough to get everyone who feels they need to give input the opportunity. I will be the final decision on any changes, but I'll do my best to weigh everyone's opinions.


The starts:

1. Gavagai




2. Mjmd




3. Superdeath




4. Greenline




5. Ginger




6. Dreylin




7. naufrager




8. ricketyclik




9. GT




10. ljubljana

[Tarkeel]

Here's my minium changes version, with the caveat that I have no idea what's in the fog.

In general:
* Make sure everyone has atleast one de-forested hill to mine while waiting for BronzeWorking.
* Check trade route access in capital, adding river as needed.

1: Gavagai: Drop the far crab, and turn the other into a fish. 5f + 5f2c + 4f1h2c; agriculture + fishing + animal
2: Mjmd: Drop the ivory. 5f1h1c + 4f2h + 3f3h; agriculture + hunting + animal
* Note this is the lowest food start, but high in other yields
3: Superdeath: Change the clam to a fish. 5f1c + 5f + 5f2c. agriculture + fishing
* Could also instead change the river-rice to a plains-wheat.
4: Greenline: Change the cow to a wheat or forest-deer: 6f + 4f1h1c + 5f1h; hunting/agriculture + animal
5: Ginger: Probably fine as-is? 6f + 4f2c + 4f2h: agriculture + fishing + animal
6: Dreylin: Change sugar to cows. 6f + 4f2h1c + 3f1h; agriculture + animal
* Note that he's likely to move to grab the gems if they remain.
7: Frogger: Change the marble to a sheep? 6f1c + 5f + 3f2h1c; agriculture + animal
8: Rickety: Drop one of the clams? 6f1c + 5f + 4f2c; fishing + agriculture
9: GT: Possibly fine as-is? 5f1h + 4f2h + 3f3h; animal
* Could also change a cow to a corn.
10: Ljubljana: Drop the ivory and forest the deer? 5f1h1c + 4f2h1c + 3f3h; agriculture + hunting + animal

[RefSteel]

[EDIT: It looks like I missed the 24-hour window, but hopefully these are of some use anyway...]

I'd be reluctant to make significant changes to starts now that they've been posted (I'd try to make it a wider balancing act using e.g. amount and quality of land available) but here are my off-the-cuff assessments of what would be needed to bring the starts themselves more closely into balance, with the caveat that I haven't looked at any of them in-depth and could well be mistaken:

[EDIT2: To put these in order of which changes I think are most important: 1/Persia and 2/Zulu are tops on my list of needed changes, followed by 4/China, then 9/Vikings, with 8/Babylon, 7/Rome, and 10/Greece continuing in descending order of importance from there - but again, I'd be content with leaving them all as-is if other means of balancing stronger vs. weaker starts will be in play - and that's all assuming I'm not missing something important since I haven't looked at them nearly as closely as I would like! They all look pretty interesting to play.]

1 - Persia:  I like Tarkeel's suggestion of replacing the near Crab with a Fish and deleting the farther Crab.  (If no changes are made, this is a very slow start in comparison with the others.)

2 - Zulu:  Definitely the strongest start, but I'm not sure removing the Ivory does much about that - the tile's yield isn't much to write home about anyway.  I would deforest the Deer instead.

3 - Japan:  I think it's within a reasonable margin of start quality from the mean, and as such, I'd leave it as-is.

4 - China:  Extend the river by a tile (i.e. start it one tile south of the current headwaters, running north to join them) - without that, this is one of just two starts that needs roads to connect any possible second city.  I also agree with Tarkeel that changing the cow to a pre-AH resource is warranted - even a forested deer should be okay in this case.

5 - Inca:  Probably okayish already; I actually think it (and 6/Egypt) needs more help than 3/Japan, which will have an 8-food surplus with just one cheap tech and two land tiles improved.

6 - Egypt:  Extend the river to allow for trade routes from the start tile - e.g. swap the SE forest hill with the S grassland and start the river 1 tile W of its current headwaters.  This is an odd duck (which is probably a good thing; I like the variation in types of start quality) but probably decent enough to get by.  I'm not too worried about the gems; I don't see a way to claim them that wouldn't slow the snowball drastically.

7 - Rome:  I'd turn the marble's tile into flatland to discourage wandering over there for a 3h plant.

8 - Babylon:  I'd take Tarkeel's suggestion and remove the nearer clam.

9 - Vikings:  I like Tarkeel's idea of changing the southern Cow to a Corn.

10 - Greece:  Looks strong enough to compete well even if Ivory is removed (I'd recommend against foresting the Deer).

[Tarkeel]

Commenting on just the parts where Ref disagreed with me:

2: Agree on deforesting deer.
3: Think some more, I'd leave the clam and instead change the river-rice to plains-wheat, adds a "bonus" hammer for the same food surplus.
6: I still believe changing the sugar to a resource is warranted here, but I do like this start other than that.
7: Definitely do something about the marble.
10: Agree, don't forest the deer.

[pindicator]

Well I ended up being tied up in holiday obligations all day. I'll probably get to boot up the computer in a couple hours

[pindicator]

New starts are posted. Thank you for your input Tarkeel, RefSteel, and Qgqqqq. I largely went with your suggestions, though I stubbornly liked Gavagai's double clam start. So I tried moving a 3h forested plains hill to first ring to allow for a faster initial work boat and perhaps allow a work boat > worker opening for fishing civs. Also swapped the sheep to a deer to lessen the tech requirement.

I wish I had kept the marble in naufrager's start but that was towards the end and I was fiddling to fiddle and lost the plot a bit by then.

[xist10]

I'm not sure how this is for others, but I can't see the revisited starts in the player threads.
The starts (without the latest changes) here in post 43 remains visible.

[Commodore]

I can see them fine, fwiw.

How much are you planning on doing out in the fog?