[Spoilers] What's Sheaim to do? Irgy controlling Tebryn

[Irgy]

Here's what I ended up sending, for posterity. I've you've read the other post, then be warned this one is substantially the same. I've only changed the paragraph about peaceful intentions (and only slightly). So this is mostly for my own reference.

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Greetings, WarriorKnight of the revered Elohim!

As you will no doubt soon see for yourself, our scout has made it past goblins, skeletons and an attack from a pack of wolves to finally arrive your borders. I hope you don't mind him taking a well deserved rest there now that he has arrived, as he needs to heal. We have known about you for a while now, as a friendly village provided us with a map which included an area with a mysterious blue glow, that they could only describe as "Elohim" lands. You are indeed the only other people we have made contact with so far.

We would first of all like to assure you of our peaceful intentions towards you for the forseeable future. With your choice to concentrate on farming and unfortunate military record, you may be understandably a little concerned about even just our injured scout sitting on your borders, let alone the number of warriors we possess overall. However I can assure you I have no intentions to spoil our future relations with a cheap shot at a currently undefended capital. The overall military disparity is primarily the result of our evidently different opinions on how dangerous these lands can be. Our warriors are (and will remain) busy enough just sitting around in barrows, exploring the wilderness, and protecting our own territory.

We hope in fact to make this the start of a strong and friendly future relationship between our civlisations. As a sign of good will, I will give you what knowledge I have of the geography of our area.

Our capital Galveholm is situated to the southeast of yours. We are settled inland, but going further to the south and east of us quickly reaches the ocean. In between the two of us are what could broadly be described as two mountain ranges. One is to the south of you and runs predominantly east west from what we can see of you. The other forms an arc around our relatively fertile lands. In between the two is a wide, dry valley which our scout has been following. This valley notably contains Letum Frigis.

We have yet to explore all that far directly along the coast to the west and north. It's also possible (but fairly unlikely) that there is more land to the southeast, as we haven't quite seen through the jungle as far as where the two coasts connect. With all the jungle around we are unlikely to be the southernmost point of the continent, but the south coast does extend at least a fair way to our west.

We would be interested to know if you have met any other survivors of the long winter age, and what you know of the geography - particularly whether there's any places nearby which we should be wary of venturing too close to.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Best wishes,
Irgy Arbandi of the Sheaim [/COLOR]

[Irgy]

So, WarriorKnight and I had a google chat. Here's the log:

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: hi there
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: ah hello

[/COLOR](we chatted about meta-game topics and meta-gaming itself. I've removed this as it's a little irrelevant and contained one minor spoiler for another game)

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: first thing i want to talk about
the fact that your right outside my capital
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: Not as close as I might have been though - I'm not 2 spaces diagonal but a step further away
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: ah, thats a relief
anyway, would you sign a short (20?) term NAP so i dont have to worry about it?
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: Sure, I'd be happy enough to do that. Don't get much out of it myself other than good will, but good will can be worth a lot
It means I can leave my scout there to heal without being rude at least
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: thanks a bunch
i hate to be demanding this early, but I'd appreciate it if you dont move to one of the 4 corners of my cap
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: I can understand that
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: ok, well thanks a bunch
i'll see if i can make it up to you at some point in the future
as the 2 rushers of this game, it would be unfortunate if we fought ourselves rather than the other peaceful builders
anyway
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: Elohim are rushers?
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: kinda
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: I know they get a lot out of rushing, but they don't have much advantage for it
I guess they can do it safely though
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: well they dont have any economic bonuses, and monks are kinda sweet
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: Ahh right monks
I'm a little skewed really because the Elohim in my self play game had such a shockingly bad start and I feel a tendency to blame the whole civ rather than just how that game went
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: you self played all the civs in this game?
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: just a 7 player hotseat, Elohim were in it at random
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: ah
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: Calabim won, although Hippus should have
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: well, maybe i'll suprise you then
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: I'm sure you'll do better than they did
So, have you met anyone else then?
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: yes
your my 2nd contact
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: that's pretty good for someone with no scouts left then
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: lol
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: I think I'm kind of in a corner though
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: im suprised ive found 2 people this early tbh
anyway
the other civ is the elves
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: right, now there's a builder civ
although that hero at archery is pretty good
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: and their worldspell kinda mirrors mine
although destroys your economy if used late
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: It's a strange one really, interested to see when it's used
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: or if
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: By the way, do you know what's happening with the Malakim? As far as I can tell they must have got that prophet event.
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: not really sure
I'll admit Im not really tracking C&D
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: I don't normally, but I'm trying to learn
and a spoiler thread is a good motivation
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: more laziness then anything i guess
after a while, it becomes pure guesswork
and with random events and huts/lairs, well that doesnt help at all
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: Now the other thing I need to remember to get out of you - am I in any danger of walking into Pristine Pass?
It won't help either of us if I pop it by accident
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: ah, you want me to tell you where it is?
i guess i should tell you
no, its nowhere nearby
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: don't need to know exactly, just whether I should avoid an area Good to know then, thanks
By the way, I'll have to go soon, dinner is done
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: its out towards the west if you go that way
ok well, thanks for the talk
ill send a response your way soon
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: Ok, great
Good to touch base with you, hope we can keep in contact
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: well, since we're almost the same timezone, im sure there will be more oppurtunities
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: yes, it makes things a lot easier
I'd better go then, have a good evening
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]warriorknightrb: ok, cya round
[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]me: or afternoon for you
cya[/COLOR]

I think I had him freaked out that I might have a scout 2 spaces diagonally from his capital, which might be why he was so keen for a chat. If I had he'd have been screwed. He can't even check until the save goes back around to him tomorrow. Definately why he was so keen for an NAP of course.

I think it went well on the whole. The NAP won't do anything for me, but it gets us off to a good start. Look forward to seeing his response. Was glad to hear that anyway, I'd thought the chat would replace a response rather than supplement it. More communication is always good.

[Irgy]

Some more diplomacy.

WarriorKnight's response:

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Greetings!

The Order of the Elohim is always pleased to encounter new civilizations, even evil ones like yours who wish to end this world. May the wisdom of Sirona be with you.

We have met one other civilization before you, the elves known as the Ljosalfor.They are located somewhere to the NE of our capital, if you wish to make contact with them.

Our scouting efforts have been somewhat less than successful. We know that there is a mountain range to our north that also stretches E-W, but aside from that we don't have much info. The only dangerous feature that you should be weary of is the Guardian which, as we've informed you already, lies towards the west.

Finally, just confirming our NAP. You agreed to a 20 turn NAP in our chat, and we're on t13, so that should make it expire on t33. Are you fine with that?

Until we meet again

WarriorKnight
Elder Monk of the order of the Elohim[/COLOR]

My reply:

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Greetings again, Elder Monk WarriorKnight

Evil though some might say we are, our goals are not so different. We seek to
gather new knowledge, while you seek to preserve the old.

Thanks again for the info on the Guardians. It sounds like if I do pop them
they'll be closer to you than me, so it's in your interests anyway. Thanks
also for the information on where to look for the Ljosalfar.

My apologies if I caused you undue concern previously. I did intend to make a
point of the fact that I was aware your capital was undefended and nonetheless
was not going to try and poach it. However I did not mean to try and cause you
to panic by giving you the impression that I was already only two tiles away
when I'm wasn't. I should have been a bit clearer about it, given that you
wouldn't be able to look at it yourself for some time.

I will confirm for formality's sake that we now have an NAP until turn 33. By
the way, does that conventionally mean it ends at the start or the end of T33?
I can't imagine how it would matter at all, but I might as well learn these
things now.

We entirely agree with your sentiment that rushing each other would likely be
a foolish exercise for either of us. We hope to instead build a relationship
of mutual trust and co-operation and create a long safe border for both of us.
We have a lot to offer each other and much to gain by working together. To
that end we will be happy to discuss extending our current "emergency" NAP
into a longer lasting agreement at some time in the future.

There's plenty more to discuss, although at least for now there's also plenty
of time to discuss it.

Our best wishes to all of the people of the Order of the Elohim,
Irgy Arbandi[/COLOR]

His response:

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Greetings Irgy Arbandi

I apologize if referring to our alignments concerned you. I was just referring to the background behind our civilizations, however that is irrelevant for this game and I agree that we have much to gain by working together.

Don't worry about pointing out my undefended capital. Since you've made it clear that you do not plan to declare on me, there's no need for me to be alarmed about it and therefore the incident is behind us.

As for the NAP, it might as well be at the end of T33 so it is a 20 turn NAP although it really doesn't matter all that much.

There's not much else that we can discuss right now, but we also hope that in the future the mighty Sheaim and Elohim empires can build a long relationship of friendship and trust and that we can work together for the mutual benefit for both of our empires.

Until me meet again,
WarriorKnight
Elder Monk of the Order of the Elohim[/COLOR]

And finally a short note from me:

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Wasn't worried about the alignment thing, was just engaging in fluff-related
conversation for no real reason. I should probably just avoid it all together,
with the civs we have the less attention people pay to fluff the better.

Just a short note to let you know, there's goblins that seem to be following
my scout. I thought I'd lost them but they were back on the hill 2S again this
turn. I'll try and lead them away, but just giving you a heads up.

Best regards,
Irgy Arbandi[/COLOR]

And finally:

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Thanks for the heads-up about the goblins. I'll be sure to get some defense up before they can reach my capital.

WK[/COLOR]

Everything fine basically. He doesn't want to commit to anything this early on, which is fair enough. I'll just keep trying to give the impression of being a good future ally in preparation for when there really is a decision to be made.

[Irgy]

Meanwhile in the game, Mysticism has finished at the end of the turn, and a warrior finished at the same time. I'd like to pretend that was good micro planning but it was just co-incidence. Next turn I'll revolt to Pacifism and God King, and start on an Elder Council. I'll also start researching Crafting. I'll make sure a worker is done in time for when Crafting is finished, which might mean delaying the Elder Council. Maybe I should have started a worker rather than the last warrior, but the payoff of those warriors in exploration and hopefully therefore huts should make them worthwhile. We'll see anyway.

As I said to WarriorKnight, those darn goblins won't leave me be:


The warrior to the northeast found fish. I marked a city spot, but it may well change depending on what else is around both northeast and southeast.

[Irgy]

Finished Mysticism (my first new tech!):


And switched to God King and Pacifism:


Making a dash past some goblins to explore further. It's a crazy fort this one. I pondered this for quite a while, whether to just send the warrior back to mark the fish/rice city spot. Decided the benefits of some huts were worth the cost of probably needing to build another warrior in the near future.


The more observant might notice my research slider is down to 0, not that it matters in anarchy. The first thing I plan to do with my 50% gold bonus is save up to 50 gold so that if the evil version of the prophet event shows up I can make full use of it. Normally I'd consider saving all the way to 100, but I've already had the free-settler event and I don't think you can get it twice. Don't know of any others that need a full 100gp this early on.

I've had a look, and in the 11 turns it will take to get Crafting, thanks to God King I can in fact build both the Elder Council and the worker. I'll decide when the time comes whether or not to work the scientist and delay the worker anyway.

[Irgy]

Some micro. I was losing out to rounding in both hammers and gold this turn, with 1 overflow hammer giving me an odd number and a total of 16.5 gold. So I switched from the wines to what is at first glance a worse tile. I trade 1 food and 1 gold for 2 hammers. I have no use for extra gold as I've reached the 50 I want anyway, and the food isn't so important because I don't want to grow until I improve the health situation, which requires either bronze working to chop the jungle or both agriculture and exploration to connect the rice. The hammers I do have a use for, they can either shave a turn off the elder council (with a bit of help from 1 more hammer sneaking in somewhere), or a turn off the worker if I want to run a scientist. I'd never pay this much attention to detail if it wasn't a turn a day, with all this time to over-think everything. Next turn I need to remember to switch back.


End turn started flashing, and I thought "that's funny, I thought I had another warrior"...

[Irgy]

On the whole, I take back everything I said about the demographics. If I'd taken them a bit more seriously (although the real stumbling block was actually my not initially realising scouts could capture cities), then maybe the following could sequence of events could have occurred:
* I realise that at least one player has no soldiers, and therefore their capital is at risk.
* It was always at least 50% likely to be the Elohim, as they and the Ljosalfar were the two who didn't grow early on and were therefore obviously building a worker first. A 50% chance is enough to take the possibility very seriously.
* Given that, I could have headed straight towards the Elohim capital, rather than mucking about trying to explore southwest first (which I only didn't do anyway because there were too many barbs in the way). I'd only have needed to get there 1 turn earlier than I did.
* I could have then circled around such that I made first contact with them right on the diagonal space where I'm in range of the city the next turn.

This would have put me in the position of power, with added diplomatically-useful plausible deniability over whether I'd planned it all to put him under threat in the first place. From there, one of three things would have happened; either I wipe him out and open myself up as much land as I could possibly want, he pops his worldspell and I never have to worry about it in the future, or he offers me the sort of deal that makes it worth leaving him in the game. All three would have been better than the current situation.

The fact is, he took a big risk with his opening. It was a risk I chose not to take, and if I don't punish others for taking it when I get the chance I've done myself a disservice. I'm happy enough with my opening and don't think it will leave me behind the ball, but he's definately done well for himself by getting away with it.

So, again, I take back everything I said about demographics not being directly good for all that much. They could have done me a lot of good this game.

[Irgy]

Well, I have a slight dilemna coming up next turn. The scout can get to a barrow on a hill west of the Elohim city. It's currently empty, so unless it spawns a skeleton this turn I can get there and explore it. The question is, do I risk upsetting WarriorKnight with a big boss baddie not far from his borders by doing so?

Popping the lair is almost certainly the right decision from a game point of view. The scout is doomed anyway, being chased down by these relentless goblins and effectively prevented from healing, so one lair is as good as I can really hope to get out of it before I lose it. Any baddies that spawn won't head my way, or at least not for a long time. And they'll head WarriorKnight's way, which while it might be damaging diplomatically will also be quite good in terms of either blowing his worldspell or crippling his start. The only negative is that if I pop an acolyte or a great person I'll have a fair bit of trouble getting them home safely (although a great person could always just pop a tech).

I'm pretty sure I'll pop it then. I could ask WarriorKnight's opinion, but he'll say no (why wouldn't he, there's nothing but bad outcomes for him). Overall there's a 14% chance of popping a big baddie. Anything else and he'll likely never know it happened anyway. If I do pop a boss he'll likely figure it was me anyway, so I'll regain some dignity by telling him about it straight away.

It's not like we've made an agreement not to search lairs near each others' borders, let alone even discussed the issue. Look forward to tonight when I find out the result.

[Lord Parkin]

Hi Irgy... looks interesting, I'll be dedlurking you in this one.

A few comments:

- Haven't played the Sheaim much myself, although I personally think Os-Gabella is more powerful than Tebryn (that may just be my love of Industrious talking though ). Either way though, Pyre Zombies are incredibly scary units, and are worth getting early even just for the sake of frightening a rival out of warring with you. Although of course, it's often better if you do war with them!

- I haven't played FFH2 in competitive multiplayer before (only friendly LAN games with my girlfriend), but I always wondered whether popping lairs around other players' territory might be a bit of an overpowered strategy. Given that you've already invested in quite a few exploring units, my suggestion would be to take advantage of that and go all-out popping lairs around other peoples' capitals. At best you'll get multiple freebies (and potentially some quite powerful ones), and get yourself a nice head start. At worst you might lose the units and face hard questions in diplomacy from the powerful enemies spawned - but there's always the option of denial (how do they know for sure it was you that popped the lair, unless they had visibilty there?). Anyway, now that you've apparently lost the window of opportunity for early rushing someone, I say you should make the most of the situation and go lair-hunting with your excess units. Just don't do it too near your own land.

- I noticed that you were somewhat dismissive of the Lanun in your own analysis. I'd caution you that the in the hands of a competent player, the Lanun can become a serious threat - all that extra food and commerce often leads to an insane tech rate. They're actually my hands-down favourite civ in FFH2 - in fact I had to stop myself playing them after a few games, because I frequently found the economic boost to be so large that it effectively lowered the difficulty by 2-3 levels. Playing any other civ, the tech rate just feels slow by comparison. That's unless you get a spectacular start... but that's geography-dependent, not civ-dependent. The Lanun will always do well on any map where there is water and they start near the coast, regardless of resources. The ability to turn ordinary coast tiles into scary 5-food 2-hammer 7(?)-commerce monsters almost from the start of the game is (in my opinion) unmatched economically by any other civ in FFH2.

Anyway, those are just a few things off the top of my head - food for thought. As I said, I'll continue to dedlurk and pop in with the occasional (or more frequent) comment. Looking forward to seeing how this game turns out.

[Irgy]

Hi Irgy... looks interesting, I'll be dedlurking you in this one.

Hey, welcome, thanks for coming over!

- Haven't played the Sheaim much myself, although I personally think Os-Gabella is more powerful than Tebryn (that may just be my love of Industrious talking though ). Either way though, Pyre Zombies are incredibly scary units, and are worth getting early even just for the sake of frightening a rival out of warring with you. Although of course, it's often better if you do war with them!

The majority of people think Tebryn is better, but I'm actually kind of regretting not choosing Gabella. As you've observed yourself (and convinced me of already), industrious is under-rated. The thing that was putting me off was actually that wonders aren't as good in FFH as they are in the base BTS. Why do I say that?

* There's less of them. Not a lot less, but less. There's less again when you account for ones with religious pre-requisites, which ties in to the next point.
* They're spread all over the tech tree. In BTS you research everything eventually, it's just a matter of what you prioritise. In FFH there's a lot of the tech tree you don't see. So generally at an equivalent stage of the game you'll have less options when it comes to wonders.
* Another side of that is there's less competition for the ones you want. It's possible no-one else will be trying to get your religious wonders, and generally less other people will be in the same part of the tech tree as you are.
* They seem generally, on average, less good. That's certainly not true about at all about some of them, but on average there's less great ones. A lot of old good ones are still there and just as good, but a fair few are gone. None of the new ones seem better than BTS ones, and plenty are quite situational. A lot of the best sort-of-new ones are those which were previously national wonders.

EDIT - I will add though that the wonders in FFH do seem quite well designed. When I say not as good, I mean not as powerful, but they're still very interesting.

However, the one fatal flaw in my argument is that I really do seriously plan to try for a tower victory, and that mostly involves building a whole lot of expensive, no-bonus-resource national wonders. If I'd really thought about that it probably would have tipped the balance.

As it stands though, arcane is good, and kind of goes well with summoner. So he's still not a bad choice. But it would have been interesting to show off something a little different in Gabella.

Oh an yes, pyre zombies rock, and I really look forward to using them.

- I haven't played FFH2 in competitive multiplayer before (only friendly LAN games with my girlfriend), but I always wondered whether popping lairs around other players' territory might be a bit of an overpowered strategy. Given that you've already invested in quite a few exploring units, my suggestion would be to take advantage of that and go all-out popping lairs around other peoples' capitals. At best you'll get multiple freebies (and potentially some quite powerful ones), and get yourself a nice head start. At worst you might lose the units and face hard questions in diplomacy from the powerful enemies spawned - but there's always the option of denial (how do they know for sure it was you that popped the lair, unless they had visibilty there?). Anyway, now that you've apparently lost the window of opportunity for early rushing someone, I say you should make the most of the situation and go lair-hunting with your excess units. Just don't do it too near your own land.

I've been finding that with my own self-play game experiments too. More than one civ of mine in those games has been completely wiped out by a nasty lair pop from another team. In RBFFHPBEM1 there were a lot of diplomatic incidents when it came to lair popping, nothing much bad ever popped but it certainly caused some tension.

You've convinced me at least that I'm on the right track in wanting to pop this one my scout can get to next turn anyway.

It's a shame then that one of my exploring warriors has already died to a spider, the scout is under threat and unlikely to survive past this current Barrow, and the other warrior is moving into unknown jungle where I'm starting to feel he is almost guaranteed to find another spider, any minute now. I got some exploration out of my units, and it is a valuable thing, but they sure don't seem to last long in this game. These excess units are running thin already.

- I noticed that you were somewhat dismissive of the Lanun in your own analysis. I'd caution you that the in the hands of a competent player, the Lanun can become a serious threat - all that extra food and commerce often leads to an insane tech rate. They're actually my hands-down favourite civ in FFH2 - in fact I had to stop myself playing them after a few games, because I frequently found the economic boost to be so large that it effectively lowered the difficulty by 2-3 levels. Playing any other civ, the tech rate just feels slow by comparison. That's unless you get a spectacular start... but that's geography-dependent, not civ-dependent. The Lanun will always do well on any map where there is water and they start near the coast, regardless of resources. The ability to turn ordinary coast tiles into scary 5-food 2-hammer 7(?)-commerce monsters almost from the start of the game is (in my opinion) unmatched economically by any other civ in FFH2.

And on this map script they will always start near the coast, and it seems like often near a particularly windy coast at that (as in a high perimeter/area ratio).

I didn't really mean to be so dismissive of them. The thing was though, that analysis was focused on what aspects of those civs were specifically bad for the Sheaim, and might affect what strategy I take. In that sense, there's nothing interesting about them. Spreading inland is a good idea (although here I go settling the fish city as my first expansion), but otherwise there's nothing specific I should do about them. You're quite right that they're likely to turn into an economic powerhouse and a force to be reckoned with, I just don't plan to reckon with them in any way that's substantially different to just following my main plan.

The way I phrased it though was definately dismissive in general rather than just in terms specific to the Sheaim, and you're quite right to point out I should take them more seriously.