Opponent Analysis! Wherein I detail exactly how and why my downfall will come about.
What exactly are we up against, anyway?
First off, we have gtAngel, playing Shekinah of the Sidar
Why I'm worried about him: as I mentioned earlier, free heroic scout is great for the Sidar. It's potentially a really scary unit.
The Sidar have more reason than anyone else to tech Poisons (unlocks their hero, and they get better assassins than the rest of us). Heroic ghost with Aeron's chosen and Sever Soul? Absolutely terrifying. Of course, that's a long way in the future. In his place, I'd probably wane the scout as soon as I could. Which would give him a real economic leg up at the start of the game.
Why I'm not worried about him: Looks like a newcomer to RB. Was trying to get a Greens game going before he joined this one. But that's no reason to underestimate him! Instead, I'm going to underestimate him based on his civ choice. Shekinah is Arc/Cre. Not sure exactly what kind of gameplan to expect. Arcane gives him potent mages. In theory, he could try to wane those. In practice, I doubt it'll work out in a reasonable timeframe.
Color-coded threat rating: Mountain Meadow
Next up, we have Selrahc, playing Auric Ulvin of the Illians
Why I'm worried about him: The Illians are Arc/Cha. If mages are our gameplan: well, they can do it better. And their mages are much deadlier, since Auric is the one leader who starts with Ice Mana. If we make it to the late game, Ice III archmages are pretty scary. And they're a solid early threat with their Priests of Winter. And some idiot decided to advocate starting him with a free tech to make up for the lack of worldspell, so he's going to have a head start on everyone else.
Why I'm not worried about him: Auric has no economic traits. Plus he's agnostic, which closes a lot of doors for him. The Priest of Winter rush might not be so dangerous on a big map (priests are 1-movers until he gets HBR). And if he does plan a rush, I think we're probably his least likely target. By the time he's got his priests ready, we ought to have our worldspell enabled. That's basically a guaranteed kill against the first wave anybody sends at us, and his priests are irreplaceable.
Color-coded threat rating: Wild Strawberry
Third off, we have Mardoc, playing Perpentach of the Balseraphs
Why I'm worried about him: Like Auric, Perpentach can execute our Arcane gameplan better than we can. My experience in XXI has given me a healthy respect for what the Balseraphs can do with their puppets, even without the summoner trait. My expectation is that Mardoc will aim for Hemah or Gibbon, for some terrifying twincasting puppet synergy. And that's only one possible Balseraph gameplan: they've also got cool unique units down the recon and melee lines. They can also have a solid economy. Build Markets when you're FIN and command posts when ORG. Run specialists when you're PHI. If the RNG is kind, Perpentach's Insane trait can be better than any other.
Why I'm not worried about him: No possibility of popping Arcane Lore from a hut this game!
Color-coded threat rating: Atomic Tangerine
Finally, we've got Ellimist, playing Decius of the Calabim
Why I'm worried about him: Probably the most skilled player in this game. Beat me handily in FFH XX. And the Calabim are one of the strongest civs in FFH. Flauros has been nerfed in EitB, but Decius is still fantastic. He's Org/Rai. We're playing a big map on a high difficulty, so organized is a great trait to have. Half-priced governor's mansions will give him a solid economic edge. Vampires are one of the stronger mid-late game military toys. And the Raiders trait is nothing to sneeze at: later in the game, it can give them a real edge in terms of mobility.
Why I'm not worried about him: This space intentionally left blank.
(January 25th, 2013, 14:03)HidingKneel Wrote: Although there's another possibility worth considering: we could postpone calendar for the moment and go straight to chants -> education. Farmed plains forest tiles are 2/0/2. For an expansive civ building settlers, this is a lot better than the
5/0/0 rice tile or the 4/1/0 riverside farms, doesn't cost a turn of anarchy, and gets us to our real source of commerce (cottages) more quickly. Not so great for growing the city after the settler is done, though.
I would prioritize Calendar to propel us forward in the tech tree by improving the Silk. If we actually make the switch to Agra right afterwards or not is another matter. We can certainly wait for GK or not use Agra at all, depending on how the land looks like. But getting to Edu without commerce is a long way, especially if we plan to rex like no tomorrow.
Quote:Devils advocate: this is supposedly a huge map, and we're the only expansive civ in the game. I think we want to grab as much land as we can... in which case, we can postpone the GoN civic for a while. The land we've seen so far is heavily forested, but if the rest of the map is not, priesthood could be key to making the most of our horizontal expansion.
That's a great point. If we are the only Expansive civ in the game, we should use that to our advantage. I'm fine with postponing GoN. In that case do we want to postpone Hunting (and Archery) as well?
Nice color coded analysis up there The only suspect choice is Shekinah, I agree, although waning the heroic scout will propel him forward a bit (not as much as it would on a small crowded map, though). I suppose he picked Arc - Cha for arcane dominance and not so much for waning alone because that would be an incredibly weak strategy. An adept needs to be upgraded to be waned, upgrades cost gold so it can take about 10-20 turns for a shade to pay back its cost and start becoming useful. The other three are top choices IMO.
Dedlurking: Tatan / CFCJesterFool / Nakor in Pitboss 8 as Mansa of India. (already dead )
Dedlurking: HidingKneel in EitB PBEM XXV as Tessa of the Ljosalfar.
(January 26th, 2013, 05:57)UnforcedError Wrote: I would prioritize Calendar to propel us forward in the tech tree by improving the Silk. If we actually make the switch to Agra right afterwards or not is another matter. We can certainly wait for GK or not use Agra at all, depending on how the land looks like. But getting to Edu without commerce is a long way, especially if we plan to rex like no tomorrow.
Well, Calendar costs around 200 beakers IIRC (depending on map size/difficulty). With the 20% prereq bonus, that's more like 166 beakers. It then takes 7 turns for a lazy elven worker to get silks improved, after which the silks give an extra 3 commerce per turn. So if we only figure in the benefit of extra commerce from the silk, it'll take 60 turns to pay for itself. Education is a long slog, but not that long.
Of course, Calendar has other benefits as well. Agrarianism, obviously. The silk boosts the happy cap in our capital. And it lets us plantation the banana (though that tile is no better than a grasslands farm). I think Agriculture -> Calendar is probably the right move, but it's worth experimenting a little. Fortunately, we don't have to decide on turn 0: I'm absolutely sure that we want Agriculture first in any case.
Quote:That's a great point. If we are the only Expansive civ in the game, we should use that to our advantage. I'm fine with postponing GoN. In that case do we want to postpone Hunting (and Archery) as well?
We can't postpone hunting, since it's a prereq for Way of the Forests. But Archery, I'd say yes: unless we see a use for Gilden
(nice barbarian cities to capture, say), it should go on the back burner.
Subject to revision when we discover the five riverside floodplains gold tiles that Merovech undoubtedly left a few tiles from our capital.
Quote:Nice color coded analysis up there The only suspect choice is Shekinah, I agree, although waning the heroic scout will propel him forward a bit (not as much as it would on a small crowded map, though). I suppose he picked Arc - Cha for arcane dominance and not so much for waning alone because that would be an incredibly weak strategy.
Though the large map could possibly work out nicely for the Sidar. Lairs and barbarians are on, so he might be able get some kind of experience farming operation set up. But I think Sandalphon would do better than Shekinah, in that case.
Well, I've already shared my overall thoughts on my favorite civ back in my FFH XX thread. So let me just focus on things that will be different this time around.
First off, we're playing as Thessa (Arc/Exp), rather than Arendel (Spi/Cre). And I'm already regretting it a little bit. Arcane used to be cool, but now everyone is doing it! Thessa is probably the weaker leader overall. Expansive is better than Creative
(especially on a giant map!), but Spiritual is much, much better than Arcane. We pretty much have to go down the magic line to get value out of Arcane, but Spiritual pays off early and often with the ability to make free civic swaps. However, it is worth noting that Spiritual is a little worse in EitB than it used to be (the savant -> mage upgrade no longer grants potency), and Arcane is a fair bit better (it now grants free mobility I to Arcane units).
EitB has changed a lot of other things, most of them in our favor. Most importantly, the cottage economy has gotten a huge upgrade. The Foreign Trade civic now doubles the growth rate of cottages. Which we probably won't make use of, since that civic is in the same column as Guardians of Nature. The Republic civic has also gotten a huge boost: it now grants +1 hammer and +1 commerce to towns. So in the late game, a grassland ancient forest with a town on it will be a 3/6/2 tile for us.
But that's not all! Elves were forbidden to practice Alchemy in the old FFH, but EitB is more open-minded. We can now build alchemy labs, which synergizes with our arcane/buildery gameplan.
Another big difference is that fawns are cheaper: 40 hammers (on quick) rather than 60. Which makes them an excellent choice: they're unlocked at WotF (which we want anyway), cost the same as hunters, don't require any special buildings (only FoL in our cities, which we'll need anyway for the culture), and are much more effective in forest terrain (which we plan to have everywhere).
Fellowship of Leaves has received other boosts, as well. Hidden Paths is a terrific tech now: in addition to enabling Guardians of Nature, it unlocks the ability to upgrade fawns to satyrs (which used to be at animal handling) and Kithra Kyriel (who used to be at Feral Bond). Meaning: the elves don't need to invest heavily in the recon line to get their war toys.
It's not quite all good, though. Hunting isn't the tech it used to be: it unlocks hunters, but not hawks. This is a great balance idea (hawks are very, very important in this kind of MP environment, where initiative is key), but ends up hurting us a little more than everyone else (since we'll probably be the first ones to research hunting anyway). Hawks are now at Animal Handling. Which I'm thinking we might just skip: since we're headed up the magic line anyway, we can get our recon info from floating eyes, instead.
So, where does that leave us? As far as war toys go, we're at a definite disadvantage (at least compared with the Calabim and Balseraphs). Satyrs are strong but hard to get in any kind of quantity, and I don't see us doing a lot of religion-hopping to explore other options (possible exception: quick detour to Empyrean to build some Vicars for druid upgrades, if we decide to grab Commune with Nature via Tower). But hopefully we can make up for that with our economy. Between the cottage economy boosts, the Guardians of Nature civic, the ability to plant trees everywhere, and the ability to land-grab via our Expansive trait, the hope is to outgrow our rivals to such an extent that the war toys don't matter. It's all a matter of getting the elven economy rolling. Which we should hopefully be able to do: it's a big builder map, after all. Not ideal for rushing in any case. And I don't think the Ljosalfar have been rushed in any of these PBEMs on RB: between the worldspell, Gilden, archers, and fawns, they're just too good at playing defense to be worth the bother.
Let's just hope the capital doesn't get sacked by barbarians before we build our first warrior .
Sorry for not being around for a few days, had a really busy week. I don't mind playing Thessa for a change at all. As you say, Expansive is actually a fantastic trait on this map and Arcane is a bit stronger in EitB than in Base FFH. Thessa is a fine leader and the giant map will help us get the slowish Elven economy going. Our worldspell is in fact another reason to grab WotF rather sooner than later. We don't need to use it we just want it to be available to discourage others. TBH in base FFH I never bother with fawns and satyrs even with Elves. I know fawns are much better in this mod so I'm looking forward to see them in action We should definitely try and make the most of Expansive with a heavy focus on city spamming.
Dedlurking: Tatan / CFCJesterFool / Nakor in Pitboss 8 as Mansa of India. (already dead )
Dedlurking: HidingKneel in EitB PBEM XXV as Tessa of the Ljosalfar.
First off, I moved one scout onto the NW hill, and a second one onto the ancient tower. This gave us a much better picture of our surroundings. To the north, we have this:
and to the south, this:
Note three differences from the initial screenshot:
1) Our heroic scout is no longer a hero, but got some promotions to make him a better scout. More fun this way. Valor promotion rewards seeing some action, hero promotion rewards keeping him at home.
2) The marsh banana has been moved north of our settling party, rather than south. That's a pretty mediocre tile, doesn't seem to matter much.
3) Shipwrecks and fish have been rotated. Settling on ancient tower tile or rice no longer gets us fish, increasing the value of moving inland.
Given what I see now, my first thoughts are either W of the silks or to settle next turn on the plains hill next to the deer down south. Want to play around in my sandbox before moving any other pieces. Any thoughts, UnforcedError?
Question for general lurkers: I have 0 gold and -1 income per turn. Will something bad happen if I don't settle this turn?
I'm pretty sure that even if you strike, you won't lose anything for a turn.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Decided there was no better place for de Gama to go than that ancient tower. And maybe an extra tile's worth of visibility could help cement things in my mind. Got a better view of the south:
Making me think that plains hill is a decent site, but nothing amazing. Also got a slightly better view of the west:
Wines! And we start with crafting. Definitely want to settle within range of the wines. Either E or SE of the dungeon.
SE is a little stronger in the very short term, since it can work the riverside cotton. E seems slightly better long-term: it's completely landlocked (SE has one tile of ocean). Assuming the second city goes on the plains hill to the southen plains hill, would we rather be three tiles away or four?
Where to settle screenshots without resource bubbles make my eyes hurt, and I know where all the resources are.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
The only suspect choice is Shekinah, I agree, although waning the heroic scout will propel him forward a bit (not as much as it would on a small crowded map, though). I suppose he picked Arc - Cha for arcane dominance and not so much for waning alone because that would be an incredibly weak strategy. An adept needs to be upgraded to be waned, upgrades cost gold so it can take about 10-20 turns for a shade to pay back its cost and start becoming useful. The other three are top choices IMO.
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